Food For Thought

SBroadley · Newbie

Food For Thought

hobbs · Senior Member

It is unfortunate that Putah is "treated like a ditch" as you put it, but the harsh reality is thats basically what it has been turned into. As the saying goes "Food grows where water flows." Thankfully the DFG had a stocking program on Putah to sustain a trout fishery and provide a place for people to enjoy and catch a few fish. Also thankfully there is an organization such as PCT. However, your post brings up an interesting thought that I have been pondering for some time now. We fly fisherman get to continue fishing Putah "for the fun of it" while the people who used to go there (often times with their kids undoubtedly) to plop a worm and take home a few trout are now ostracized. This isnt just happening on Putah either.

I too am not an expert on Putah Creek and its apparent decline during recent years (Im sure its a combination of several factors), but I do know that the fish are there because of the fishermen and are there for the fishermen. We arent talking about an ancient native run of salmon in Alaska here, we're talking about fish that have been introduced into a short stretch of stream in between two man made impoundments. Putah is a valuable recreational resource. Hopefully it will do well as a "Wild Trout Fishery" under the new regulations and will continue to stay open year round for the remaining fishermen to enjoy.

If some of you are frustrated about C&R fly fishermen "spawn chasing" just think of the frustration of the sustenance fishermen who can no longer fish the creek at all (even though they bought a fishing license just like the rest of us). These people have no desire to fish solely "for the fun of it." Also, most of them certainly aren't going to spend the time and money to take up fly fishing. I personally feel bad for these fishermen but I am also torn because I know the value of a "Wild Trout Fishery" and I primarily practice catch and release fly fishing. Its a tough situation...

So lets all keep these things firmly in mind as we develop our thoughts and express our feelings toward any style/approach to fishing on any body of water. And lets all be good representatives of our sport....the fishermen (ALL fishermen) make the fishery.

I hope people dont take this as stirring up the pot again....just take what you want from it...

Thanks for the post SB.

Robert

-- Edited by hobbs on Friday 7th of January 2011 09:11:10 AM

Xnjb707X · Senior Member

Now where did I leave my big ol' spoon and that hot brewing cauldron.. smile

windknots · Senior Member

Personally I don't think sustenance fishing is a factor, for the cost of the license, gear, time, and gasoline the money would be far better spent on other groceries. Never mind the fact that most of the fish would have been hatchery raised fish, the economics of that make no sense at all.

There are plenty of places for catch & keep, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

hobbs · Senior Member

Im not only talking about keeping fish to eat. Im talking about all the fishermen who prefer and enjoy fishing with bait and gear and yes, who like to keep a few fish for the dinner table. The new regulations on Putah have driven these people away and further regulations could drive even more fishermen away. Not to mention the prevailing attitude toward fly fishermen will continue to worsen. If the sport of fishing and number of fishermen declines in coming years then its safe to say that fisheries could suffer as well. Im just saying we're all on the same team. Lets promote the sport of fishing by developing the right attitude and passing it along to others.

Heres some food for thought. In 2010, $59,927,956 was spent on licenses and various supplemental cards and stamps by California fishermen. Just imagine if you eliminated the DFG and this funding what the fishing and fisheries would be like in the future. Also not to mention the conservation groups that are solely comprised of fishermen. Again, the fishermen make the fisheries.

Robert

-- Edited by hobbs on Friday 7th of January 2011 10:33:25 AM

AfricanAngler · Senior Member

hobbs wrote:

Im not only talking about keeping fish to eat. Im talking about all the fishermen who prefer and enjoy fishing with bait and gear and yes, who like to keep a few fish for the dinner table. The new regulations on Putah have driven these people away and further regulations could drive even more fishermen away. Not to mention the prevailing attitude toward fly fishermen will continue to worsen. If the sport of fishing and number of fishermen declines in coming years then its safe to say that fisheries could suffer as well. Im just saying we're all on the same team. Lets promote the sport of fishing by developing the right attitude and passing it along to others.

Heres some food for thought. In 2010, $59,927,956 was spent on licenses and various supplemental cards and stamps by California fishermen. Just imagine if you eliminated the DFG and this funding what the fishing and fisheries would be like in the future. Also not to mention the conservation groups that are solely comprised of fishermen. Again, the fishermen make the fisheries.

Robert

-- Edited by hobbs on Friday 7th of January 2011 10:33:25 AM

I think we need to make it clear that Putah is not a fly fishing only creek. Single hook barbles lures are allowed. The reason bait is not allowed I would imagine is due to the fact that a lot of fish caught with bait do not survive being released.

As we have all seen Putah is not a sustainable catch and keep fishery without heavy stocking. Without stocking there would be no fishery for anyone, fly, gear or otherwise if Putah had continued on as a catch and keep fishery.

So in short C&R is not to make it a fishery for flyfisherman only but ensure that it is a fishery for ALL!!

edog7 · Veteran Member

The reason why everyone feels that the fishery has declined so much in recent years is because they quit stocking putah. Many of the hatchery fish would migrate to the lake fatten up on all the biomass in the lake and when it came to winter time they would get the urge to spawn to. So a lot of these big trout are just holdover rainbows that have started to behave like wild fish I have caught a lot of these fish! There has been bait fishing and tons of fishing pressure on Putah for ever. So why has the fishery collapsed in the last two years its not rocket science they dont stock it anymore To be honest I enjoyed fishing the creek when there were actually a lot of fish to catch I didnt mind catching a 17 inch holdover hatchery trout that acted like a wild fish and fought like crazy. Im sure people will want to debate and argue all the different factors that have lead to the decline in the last two years but the answer is very simple.

Edog

SK60 · Senior Member

The "collapse" of the fishery was not caused by the stopping of stocking. It was years of over harvest by those that keep fish for whatever reason, especially very large fish. I have seen a stringer of 10 fish, none under 18 inches, being hauled away by a pair of bait fishermen during the regular season so it was perfectly legal. They had figured out a way to access the large fish and this was their third trip of the season where they took out limits of similarly sized fish. Every spring for the past 10 years I have witnessed many stringers with one or two large (dead) fish. That has only stopped since the no take regs have been in place. And believe it, attempts to poach these large fish are still going on this winter and will continue during the regular season.

It's incorrect to promote hatchery fish as major contributors to the year-to-year stability of the fishery in the past. Hatchery fish have one purpose: be caught within two weeks or (mostly) die. Movement of these holdover fish, or wild fish, into and out of Lake Solano has never been reliably demonstrated. To my knowledge, no one right now is reporting consistent catches of trout in Lake Solano. On the other hand, hatchery fish planted in Lake Solano used to quickly move into the Creek up as far as the bottom of access 4, and they did provide "fast action".

I don't think there's any need to debate why we are where we are with this fishery. What needs to be done is to provide protection to the current young and growing fish, as well as the remaining large spawning fish. Many of those large fish are getting old and won't be around in coming years. But their replacements are coming, if we do our part. It's pretty much a certainty that hatchery fish are not returning to the IDR, so let's work with that reality and get on with growing the wild trout population for the eventual benefit of all fishermen.

Ty · Senior Member

I'm not so sure that there were or are many holdovers in the creek. I've heard that they rarely survive through the winter, being weak 8"-10"ers when they're dumped in.
My very first time fishing Putah was December 2008. There were huge spawners everywhere. (I recall running into a gentleman from the bay area with his fly box full of large dry flies, he told me he saw a couple of salmon but no trout. I told him, that those were the huge rainbows that Putah is famous for.) I counted 20 plus fish at several different redds all over 18". The creek was full of very large adult fish. I believe the summer of 2008 was the last time Putah was stocked. Summer 2009 hit, the regulations of taking 5 trout was still in effect, but no stocking took place. Putah was then, IMO, ravaged and now we are dealing with those results. I'm pretty confident that the creek will rebound with the current 0 take regs, it will just take time.

-Taylor

edog7 · Veteran Member

So basically the hatchery fish were acting as a buffer for the large natives? People would get there limits of small hatchery fish and call it a day? Then when they stopped stocking obviously no more hatchery fish so only the large natives were targeted I guess that makes a bit of sense.

Edog

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 11:19:05 PM

Otter · Senior Member

Planter trout have a lot more spots below the lateral line. Here is an example of some smaller trout. I fish the creek year around and can tell you there are not that many big trout that have a lot of spots below the lateral line. The big wild trout have a distinct difference from the planters. If you fish the creek year around you will know what I am talking about. If you are a bait fisherman the best place to fish is the upper east carson the County plants huge fish. I have seen at least 200 planters in one little hole!!! They plant all of the areas around Markleeville.

Berryessie · Senior Member

In my fly fishing career I have not found a wild trout fishery to expect big numbers of fish. I am sure when Putah was being stocked many anglers had epic days and numbers of fish to brag about. Those days are over, say good bye. I know the creek well and have had a pretty good year fishing it. I think the main thing is to set your expectations correctly. I feel like many anglers go out and have a slow day and the only reason they can come up with is that "oh the fishing has really gone down hill" or "it's a really bad year." It's like all other wild trout fisheries I have fished expect quality fish not quantity. Putah takes on the characteristic that you will be challenged and will have to work for your fish. Thats the reward and you are paid in the beauty of a wild healthy trout who fought like he was twice his size and had your heart pounding through your waders. It's not easy or everyone would do it.

hobbs · Senior Member

Im not really making any point other than we are all fishermen whether catch and keep bait fishermen or C&R fly fishermen. All Im saying is that if there are too many regulations there may be fewer and fewer fishermen. Believe it or not there is a large number of people who like to fish to keep a few for the dinner table, they dont want to fish just for the fun of it. Im a big proponenet of C&R wild trout fisheries but we all need to remember that these regs exclude a lot of people. This isnt just about Putah creek, its about the sport of fishing.

Also, I understand that Putah is not "fly fishing only." But lets be honest, how many non-fly fishermen have been seen on the creek since the regs changed? Ive personally seen one person throwing a spinner in eight trips to the creek yet have seen dozens and dozens of fly fishermen. When regs change to "artificial, barbless, C&R only" it might as well be "fly fishing only." I can think of several bodies of water where this has occured. Conversly, fly fishermen make up a small percentage of total fishermen. Again, its just a bummer when some people are excluded due to regulations. My ultimate point is that if the sport of fishing suffers from over regulation then a lot of fisheries will suffer as well.

-- Edited by hobbs on Saturday 8th of January 2011 11:05:40 AM

hobbs · Senior Member

Ty wrote:

I'm not so sure that there were or are many holdovers in the creek. I've heard that they rarely survive through the winter, being weak 8"-10"ers when they're dumped in.
My very first time fishing Putah was December 2008. There were huge spawners everywhere. (I recall running into a gentleman from the bay area with his fly box full of large dry flies, he told me he saw a couple of salmon but no trout. I told him, that those were the huge rainbows that Putah is famous for.) I counted 20 plus fish at several different redds all over 18". The creek was full of very large adult fish. I believe the summer of 2008 was the last time Putah was stocked. Summer 2009 hit, the regulations of taking 5 trout was still in effect, but no stocking took place. Putah was then, IMO, ravaged and now we are dealing with those results. I'm pretty confident that the creek will rebound with the current 0 take regs, it will just take time.

-Taylor

How do you think the creek was populated with brown and rainbow trout to begin with. There are trout in Putah today because they were artificially stocked. They were stocked because there was a demand by fishermen and there was funding by people purchasing fishing licenses.

-- Edited by hobbs on Sunday 9th of January 2011 01:57:16 PM

SK60 · Senior Member

Does it matter where they came from originally? Protection and nurturing is what they need and deserve, like any other threatened natural resource.

hobbs · Senior Member

LilWhippersnapper wrote:

Hobbs, Putah Creek is not only for the fly fishermen. You can use gear as well. I really don't understand your point. I guess what you're trying to say is that C and R only regs shouldn't even be in existence on any body of water. There are some waters (like Putah) that can't take the pressure of so many fishermen taking fish out everyday. Yes, the bait fishermen have been run off... That's a good thing. Not only are the fish staying in the creek, but the creek is a lot cleaner now as well. Not as much worm boxes, power bait jars, and beer cans laying around.

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Friday 7th of January 2011 06:39:30 PM

"Thats a good thing"?? So all bait fishermen litter and disrespect the fishery? This attitude is exactly why bait/gear fishermen hate fly fishermen. Its really unfortunate because we fly fishermen are the minority and should be working to promote the sport not driving people away. Also, it seems that Putah was able to support catch and keep as long as it was continually stocked.

AfricanAngler · Senior Member

hobbs wrote:

Also, it seems that Putah was able to support catch and keep as long as it was continually stocked.

Look like this is about to turn into another boxing match !!!! I do not wish to box so please this is just an FYI to clear one thing up. It was not as a result of the fly fisherman or PCT that the stocking was stopped!!! The stocking was stopped because of an enviromental lawsuit brought up against the DFG!!! I do not know all the details maybe somelse knows more about it.

SK60 · Senior Member

I, for one, am tired of the same old rehashes of threads that have been posted repeatedly for the past three years. The same old arguments, statements, and opinions. Some of us spend our spare time walking the walk along with talking the talk. As a spokesman for PCT, I hope to see you out there actively supporting and protecting YOUR fishery.

shon42073 · Senior Member

SK60 wrote:

I, for one, am tired of the same old rehashes of threads that have been posted repeatedly for the past three years. The same old arguments, statements, and opinions. Some of us spend our spare time walking the walk along with talking the talk. As a spokesman for PCT, I hope to see you out there actively supporting and protecting YOUR fishery.

Amen to that SK60. Bunch of talkers !

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 11:20:57 PM

hobbs · Senior Member

Im simply playing devils advocate a little here. As proven on this very thread Im trying to make certain people think a little and change their attitudes to be better representatives of the sport.

I dont know all the posts, discussions and debates that have taken place on here over the past years because new people explore this blog all the time (myself being one of them). That being said, maybe its important to "rehash" certain things from time to time.

"Catch and kill" can work and I have seen it work many times. Ever heard of Baum Lake? There is a five fish limit year round. I was just there two weeks ago and caught several nice fish(and yes I kept a few to enjoy for dinner). Not to mention people regularly catch fish at Baum that are measured in pounds instead of inches. Its really quite an amazing fishery and yes it is stocked heavily. So it can be done. Im not saying that this is the way to go with Putah because I understand that the stocking has ceased due to the law suit (thanks for the clarification Alastair). And yes, it is OK to have select waters be managed as "wild trout" fisheries. As I keep repeating this isnt just about Putah. Its about people's attitudes, being good representatives of our sport and not heading down the path of over regulation.

Im sick of people with the territorial surfer mentality that think they own a certain body of water. Im sick of people that think their philosophy toward fishing (ie. catch and release vs catch and kill) is right. And Im sick of people that think their choice of tackle is better than others. We are all fishermen! We all buy fishing licenses and we all follow the regs (at least the vast majority do). This attitude that some seem to have is not good for the sport of fishing which can ultimately be detrimental to the fisheries.

Im sorry to those on here who dont have this attitude and have to read this, and I thank you. But to those that do share this attitude, please think about all of this and consider changing.

Robert

PS. Just because someone isnt a member of PCT doesnt mean they dont "walk the walk." Hopefully we all do our part to be good representatives of the sport and work to improve the waters we fish.

-- Edited by hobbs on Saturday 8th of January 2011 05:07:26 PM

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 11:23:09 PM

hobbs · Senior Member

SK60 wrote:

The "collapse" of the fishery was not caused by the stopping of stocking. It was years of over harvest by those that keep fish for whatever reason, especially very large fish. I have seen a stringer of 10 fish, none under 18 inches, being hauled away by a pair of bait fishermen during the regular season so it was perfectly legal. They had figured out a way to access the large fish and this was their third trip of the season where they took out limits of similarly sized fish. Every spring for the past 10 years I have witnessed many stringers with one or two large (dead) fish. That has only stopped since the no take regs have been in place. And believe it, attempts to poach these large fish are still going on this winter and will continue during the regular season.

It's incorrect to promote hatchery fish as major contributors to the year-to-year stability of the fishery in the past. Hatchery fish have one purpose: be caught within two weeks or (mostly) die. Movement of these holdover fish, or wild fish, into and out of Lake Solano has never been reliably demonstrated. To my knowledge, no one right now is reporting consistent catches of trout in Lake Solano. On the other hand, hatchery fish planted in Lake Solano used to quickly move into the Creek up as far as the bottom of access 4, and they did provide "fast action".

I don't think there's any need to debate why we are where we are with this fishery. What needs to be done is to provide protection to the current young and growing fish, as well as the remaining large spawning fish. Many of those large fish are getting old and won't be around in coming years. But their replacements are coming, if we do our part. It's pretty much a certainty that hatchery fish are not returning to the IDR, so let's work with that reality and get on with growing the wild trout population for the eventual benefit of all fishermen.

Its safe to say that none of the fish in Putah or many other trout waters for that matter are decendants of native fish. They have all been introduced at some point and have become "wild" over time.

Also, was there ever suggestion of a slot limit on Putah in the past? Studies have shown that slot limits are very effective for managing a fishery (obviously this is a moot point now that the stocking has ceased on Putah and its now zero limit). But maybe if a slot limit was in place on Putah these big fish on the stringers that you speak of would still be swimming in the creek. You cant blame the fishermen for bad management practices....all you can do is educate them.

I really agree with what you said in your last paragraph, well put. Like I have said so many times, thanks to the PCT and all other fishermen who strive to be good representatives of the sport through their attitudes and actions.

Robert

-- Edited by hobbs on Saturday 8th of January 2011 11:10:44 PM

hobbs · Senior Member

Lil, Im tired of going head to head with you. You seem to only choose parts of my post that in some way back up what you are saying.

For example you wrote, "There's a difference between a lake that can handle the pressure compared Putah, or let's say Hot Creek. Again, you are proving my point. You said Baum is heavily stocked. Again, most the fish you are catching are stocked fish. I guarantee you if they stop stocking that lake you will see a huge decline."

But what I said was "....So it can be done. Im not saying that this is the way to go with Putah because I understand that the stocking has ceased due to the law suit (thanks for the clarification Alastair). And yes, it is OK to have select waters be managed as "wild trout" fisheries. As I keep repeating this isnt just about Putah. Its about people's attitudes, being good representatives of our sport and not heading down the path of over regulation." Did you not read or understand this part?

Also its not just "my way." Lots of people share my feelings toward this matter. And no, I dont want to stir the pot but if its taken that way then I cant do anything about that. Additionally, I dont know where this is coming from when you said, "Your whole rant was that people should be able to keep fish no matter what." All I can say in response is...um...no it wasnt.

Ok, Im done, please read and heed the PM I sent you.

Again Im sorry to others,

Robert

-- Edited by hobbs on Saturday 8th of January 2011 05:59:14 PM

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 11:23:40 PM

hobbs · Senior Member

I'll copy and paste my point for you, "As I keep repeating this isnt just about Putah. Its about people's attitudes, being good representatives of our sport and not heading down the path of over regulation."

Dont choose parts of my posts, please read and understand the whole thing. And also, with your prevailing attitude, Im pretty sure we dont really agree on much at all.

Lets keep any further banter thats solely directed at each other to PM to spare everyone else and to keep this thread productive and positive. All I ask is that if you respond to my posts on the open forum please thoroughly read what I wrote then really consider a thoughtful response.

Thanks,

Robert

-- Edited by hobbs on Sunday 9th of January 2011 12:44:41 AM

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 11:24:12 PM

Black Cloud · Senior Member

Hobbs, show up for a clean up in the Fall and you will see that most bait fishermen litter.

hobbs · Senior Member

Believe me, I know. Every time I go to the creek I pick up trash, all kinds of trash along the road and the creek (me "walking the walk" so to speak). Unfortunately it only takes a few people to ruin it for everyone. How can you say that fly fishermen dont leave wrappers, and bottles/cans lying around too. Not to mention Ive seen some trees at Putah that are better decorated than my Christmas tree. Complete with flies, indicators split shot and tippet. This is litter too you know. All Im saying is that its not fair to lump all bait fishermen together and say they are the reason for the trash along the creek and that fly fishermen dont contribute to the litter. This attitude ties right into everything Ive been saying.

-- Edited by hobbs on Sunday 9th of January 2011 06:03:57 PM