Redds

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

Redds

hobbs · Senior Member

LilWhippersnapper wrote:

Just moved here huh? Way to introduce yourself. Bono said he would like to see it shut down for a couple months. Does that mean he said he has never fished it in the winter?
________________________________________________________

Lets just all practice what we preach, I know I will, thats all Im saying. If you avoid redds, follow the regs and practice good catch and release technique you wont be hurting the fishery. If the fishery is being harmed then the DFG should close it during spawning season. No one should be trying to tell others to not fish the creek or threaten them in any way. If you see someone fishing or wading through redds, using barbed hooks or abusing fish then approach them and educate them.

And by the way, we all move and start fishing new waters. Lets drop the territorial surfer stuff and just go fishing.

-- Edited by hobbs on Monday 6th of December 2010 08:30:21 PM

hobbs · Senior Member

Listen, my goal isnt to instigate, insult or make enemies here. I removed a couple posts because I read them a few times and thought about what I said and didnt like it. Anyway, please read the things I did post and consider what I said. We all love to fish so lets just do our best to enjoy our passion while preserving all the places we visit. OK, Im done.

Xnjb707X · Senior Member

I *am* saying don't fish it when the fish are spawning. Just cuz the DFG says its ok doesn't mean in the long run it is.. There are other river's to fish and other species to go after, or try something else besides fishing during the spawn.. This argument will never end, and it shouldn't. Don't be a spawn chaser.

- Nic

hobbs · Senior Member

Xnjb707X wrote:

I *am* saying don't fish it when the fish are spawning. Just cuz the DFG says its ok doesn't mean in the long run it is.. There are other river's to fish and other species to go after, or try something else besides fishing during the spawn.. This argument will never end, and it shouldn't. Don't be a spawn chaser.

- Nic

Im a trout chaser not a spawn chaser. Ive been fly fishing for almost 20 years and in recent years I do most of my fishing in the winter due to my job. I cherish these months. When I lived in Truckee I would fish all winter on the Truckee River and Pyramid Lake freezing my butt off while my friends were skiing. I was fortunate to live near quality year-round waters and was sad to leave but am happy to find Putah Creek. Fly fishing is my favorite pastime, I love it...so no Im not going to "try something else." I do fish for steelhead in the winter as well but often times the rivers are fouled. Putah being a tailwater makes it fishable during/after heavy rain and combined with year round regs it provides a unique opportunity to catch trout in the winter. I understand its spawning season so I usually avoid the upper mile of the river, never cast to or wade through redds and always land fish quickly and release them carefully. I understand yours and others concerns for the fishery but fisherman like me are not the problem and cause very little harm. Please dont make me and others like me feel like we are unethical bad guys just because we love to fish.

-- Edited by hobbs on Monday 6th of December 2010 11:01:20 PM

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:14:01 PM

jvento · Senior Member

LilWhippersnapper wrote:

This is a sensitive subject especially here at Putah because certain people have worked there butt off to make it C & R year round. I just think it's wrong of you to come on here and call out the guy who owns this message board. Do you plan on being a long time member? Or are you just ranting?
People have worked hard to get the reg passed and they don't need people preaching to fish during the spawn. If you wanna fish it during the spawn go ahead, but don't come on here and rub salt in the wound. By the way, just because you're not fishing on a redd, doesn't mean the fish you are catching aren't spawners. They may have just finished spawning or just getting ready to.

Which is why most of this BS should be saved for PM. Lilwhip, your not helping either by calling Hobbs out publicly or threatening his existence on this board. Why does there have to be hostility? Nobody likes a Grinch...

georgek · Veteran Member

Not wanting to get too involved in the spawning debate. But it seems like a lot of the people that are telling people not to fish right now have pictures of "manhandled" fish. It is possible to catch and release a fish without having to take it out of the water much less take it out and take thirty seconds of pictures. My point is that we all could probably be a little gentler to the fish we catch.

AfricanAngler · Senior Member

georgek wrote:

Not wanting to get too involved in the spawning debate. But it seems like a lot of the people that are telling people not to fish right now have pictures of "manhandled" fish. It is possible to catch and release a fish without having to take it out of the water much less take it out and take thirty seconds of pictures. My point is that we all could probably be a little gentler to the fish we catch.

I am sure it is me that you are refering to so, yes guilty as charged. (My first Steelhead in picture) But what you say is true, as I have mentioned earlier in this thread just by fishing were are effecting the streams and the echo system around them, and I feel we should all try to minimize our impact.

-- Edited by AfricanAngler on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 11:00:58 AM

georgek · Veteran Member

I wasnt trying to single anyone out, I hadn't even noticed your picture actually. Just wanted people to remember that there are lots of ways to help fish, avoiding spawners as well as avoiding excessive handling are both easy things we can all do.

ONEWEIGHT · Senior Member

I'm feeling a calling to join in on this thread for some strange reason. This topic surfaces every year at this time, and I believe it is a good sign when so many people feel this passionaltely about Putah Creek. The creek needs and deserves this kind of sentiment from people in order to survive and prosper as a quality wild trout fishery.

I'm not sure what the "correct" answer is to this topic. I would certainly say that you could fish dry flies at the creek and target 6"-10" trout which have not yet reached spawning age. These places do exist on the creek. Personally, I would not advocate nymphing in the creek right now. Too many fish are heading upstream to spawn. Why spend our time taking the chance to unintentionally kill some of the broodstock?
Putah is far more fragile a system at this time than most Delta or Mountain habitats.
In talking with people who have fished Putah far more actively than I have over the years, the feedback is the same . . . Putah has dimished as a trout fishery to a near alarming magnitude.

Several years ago, I read, and had a difficult time, understanding the rationale of advocated a "no fish" at this time of year. After reading more about the subject and realizing the pro's and con's of this particular situation, I came to modify my reasoning. I would fish up top in certain areas of the creek for smaller fish. I won't fish anywhere near redd's, not even close. But really, I'll drive the extra hour to other streams and fish there right now. That's just my preference at this time.

For those people not familiar with the circumstances. Putah Creek is under Phase II evaluation as a candidate for inclusion into the DF&G Wild Trout Stream program. Putah Creek Trout is working with DF&G at this time on a very worthwhile project at the creek. I think revealing the details of the survey would diminish the accuracy of results, but it is a good one. As always PCT welcomes the work of people who would volunteer to further the interests of Putah Creek. You can respond via the PCT website and join the group!

Bob

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:14:23 PM

hobbs · Senior Member

LilWhippersnapper wrote:

This is a sensitive subject especially here at Putah because certain people have worked there butt off to make it C & R year round. I just think it's wrong of you to come on here and call out the guy who owns this message board. Do you plan on being a long time member? Or are you just ranting?
People have worked hard to get the reg passed and they don't need people preaching to fish during the spawn. If you wanna fish it during the spawn go ahead, but don't come on here and rub salt in the wound. By the way, just because you're not fishing on a redd, doesn't mean the fish you are catching aren't spawners. They may have just finished spawning or just getting ready to.
_________________________________________________________

First of all, I removed that post. I want to take this opportunity to apologize for calling him out on his own page. Im still confused on the contradiction though. Secondly, Im not sure if I want to be a long term member at this point but this thread inspired me to interject. So yes, I did want to rant a little and defend myself and others like me who want to get out and catch a few trout this winter. And no Im not preaching to fish during the spawn! If you read my posts more closely Im repeatedly preaching to fish responsibly and to NOT target spawning fish. Fish that are pre/post spawn wont be affected by sound catch and release fly fishing. How many dead fish have you seen on the creek? If you do, it would be safe to say that it was a result of poor catch and release practices, "man handling" is a good way to put it. The key is to not disturb actively spawning fish so they can take care of business.

Again, like I have said many times, I appreciate all the work people do on Putah Creek and in getting the regs changed to artificial, barbless, catch and release only. But why change it to year round if you dont want people fishing during the winter/spawn?

From what little I know about the creek, fly fisherman are at the bottom of the list of issues. The problems I see are irregular flows, siltation, hydrilla and mud snail infestation and poachers. Lets focus our energy on these things and continue to educate fellow fishermen while on the creek.

From what I can see, the fish numbers seem really good. I see dozens and dozens of fish of all sizes every time Im on the creek and I have yet to be even close to being skunked once. I was there today and landed eight fish between 5 and 15 inches and watched some really big fish do their spawning thing. It was a fantastic day. Compared to the Truckee, the fishing on Putah is great!

Lastly, will someone please let me in on these other winter trout waters that everyone keeps talking about. I cant think of any within 2+ hours of my house. The steelhead fishing can be ok if the rivers are fishable.

hobbs · Senior Member

georgek wrote:

Not wanting to get too involved in the spawning debate. But it seems like a lot of the people that are telling people not to fish right now have pictures of "manhandled" fish. It is possible to catch and release a fish without having to take it out of the water much less take it out and take thirty seconds of pictures. My point is that we all could probably be a little gentler to the fish we catch.

Well put, thank you.

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:14:41 PM

ONEWEIGHT · Senior Member

Hobbs, I am not sure where you live, but the Lower Yuba and American River basins are a 2 hour drive from the Bay Area and both are year round fisheries. The Mokelumne is about the same although it has limited access and has a closure during fall. The Feather is another half hour.

Just to clarify, the regulations change did not change Putah to a year round fishery. It was already a 12 month fishery. In my opinion, changing to catch and release, and a winter closure would not have been passed by the Fish and Game Commission.

Bob

georgek · Veteran Member

I'm a little confused why people are saying don't fish putah because of spawners go fish for steelhead? What is the difference in fishing over spawning fish on putah as compared to somewhere else.

hobbs · Senior Member

ONEWEIGHT wrote:

Hobbs, I am not sure where you live, but the Lower Yuba and American River basins are a 2 hour drive from the Bay Area and both are year round fisheries. The Mokelumne is about the same although it has limited access and has a closure during fall. The Feather is another half hour.

Just to clarify, the regulations change did not change Putah to a year round fishery. It was already a 12 month fishery. In my opinion, changing to catch and release, and a winter closure would not have been passed by the Fish and Game Commission.

Bob

Winter closure wouldnt have been passed because they know that its not necessary at this point and they know how much people enjoy having a quality trout fishery to visit in the winter. Now that its C&R only I bet the fishery will begin to improve even though in my eyes it seems like a dang fine fishery already (excluding the issues I mentioned above). Will someone please explain to me what makes Putah "fragile"? Yes it gets a lot of pressure and its a short section between Berryessa and Solano Lake but the fish numbers and quality of the fish seems to be very good.

Thanks for the destination recommendations and Im well aware of those fisheries but they are all at least a two hour drive for me and make for a pretty long day trip. Also how well do they hold up during/after heavy rain fall. I really want to hit the Russian but its the color of chocolate milk and flowing at about 8K right now. Im really thankful for Putah and will continue to fish it responsibly in the months to come.

I appreciate the sensible, thoughtful and informative posts.

-- Edited by hobbs on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 12:17:42 PM

BENICE · Member

Lilwhippersnapper: Its not about if Jonvento likes you or not. Thats not the point. What it boils down to is "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR PUTAH LATELY" we dont see you at functions, clean-ups, volunteer work, donations, gatherings or anything else affiliated with Putah Creek Trout. But what you are great at doing is intergecting your childish nonsense remarks on others posts with words that are not needed ot that others have already said, but typed down with your hands to make you look good. Which inturns ruins their great day on the water and just makes you look immature and childish. And to be honest we are all getting tired of it. This is a public forum for people to post about their day on the water, or to get help with issues they may have, and would in return would like to get mature, respectful feedback. Definitely what you do not do. If you have something that needs to be said then PRIVATE MESSAGE them. Dont throw them under the bus for the WORLD to see.

Hobbs: What everyone is trying to say is that if you are fishing below redds 99% of the time the fish that are below those redds are actively spawning fish that are not on the redds. A lot of fish that are spawning will take breaks throughout the day and will drop back into deeper pools to catch what you would call a break. They exert a lot of energy cleaning out the redds and spawning that they just need some breaks here and there. So fishing below redds isnt the smartest thing to do on an already fragile ecosystem. Not saying dont fish it just be carefull where you do. There are many holes and areas you can fish and be 99% sure there are no redds in the area. The river below Access 3 is a great place to start, the Sawmill hole aka horseshoe run, this is the run above the bridge that is below the island and you fish it by crossing the river to the resort side and fish from that ledge, great hole slow drifts but can be rewarding with big fish, shauns hole, sorry shaun trying to give him some ideas, this is a great hole, no redds, but you must be carefull where you cross, to get to this hole you must cross the river in an area where there are active spawners. These are the types of areas that you are looking for. If there is a tailout in the area that you wanna fish, then there are spawners, this is what you want to stay away from. You think its a great fishery now because you only started fishing in now where its like shooting fish in the barrel. With the low flows and most of the fish in the upper 2 miles of river you are going to get fish everytime you are out. Its like shooting fish in a barrel, they are all corralled up either behind redds or the deeper pools with somewhat moving water, which this time of yr isnt great. You diddnt fish it before the plantings stopped, say 6yrs ago before the decline of the fishery. There has been a huge decline in large spawning population of fish, which means less spawners to successfully spawn in the already hard ecosystem that they have. 6yrs ago it wasnt uncommon to get many fish in one day in the upper teens lower 20s throughout the yr. Now its is uncommon to get fish like that. They stopped planting before the new regs where in place and I saw with my own eyes, bait guys pulling stringers full of large 20+" fish out of the river on a weekly basis. This went of for almost a full yr. That will kill a fishery faster than any other natural disaster.

Georgek: Why people say to fish for steelhead and not putah is that Putah is a self sustaining 5mile long creek where there is no hatchery or plantings to sustain the fishery. These fish must do that by themselfs with no aid from us who kill great fisherys with dam and water diversion plants. Since there is only 5miles of river there isnt much room for them to do what they need to do to sustain the fishery. Add that with low winter flows, silt, weeds and fly fisherman targeting these few and far between spawning areas it gives them a slimmer chance of spawning succesfully. As far as say the American river goes you only see a very small % of the fish caught, which leaves many more to get to the hatchery or to successfully spawn. Many make it to the hatchery to be spawned out and put back in the river to come back for future years, others are never caught, and many successfully spawn in areas that people dont fish. The American River is a very good example of how a dammed river with a hatchery works. Many fish get spawned in the hatchery, which inturn produces the offspring for the following yrs which are unharmed by people walking accross the redd or disturbing the spawning steelhead, so this egg has a higher % of surviving to an adult. The American River is a bigger ecosystem that can sustain fisherman do to it being a bigger fishery. 27 miles of river for these fish to spawn and hide compared to 5 miles of river. Much higher flows, 3000% higher flows that Putah. Same goes for the Trinity River this river is 128 miles of great fishy water and a great ecosystem for them, including a great hatchery as well. And each yr they have great runs of steelhead (hatchery and wild), Kings (hatchery and wild) and Cohos (hatchery and wild). Both the Trinity and American have restoration projects that fix the river bottom either by adding new spawning gravel, opening up old spawning areas or completely changing areas for more positive spawning feedback. Some day Putah creek will be a great fishery, but it will just take time. Hopefully by that time it will be closed in full or atleast the first mile for spawners from dec to feb. If not hopefully people will understand how special this fishery is and will either fish the lower river during the spawn or will just stay away.

Many people have put time and money into getting Putah where it is today. We as fly fisherman need to take care of our home waters. These posts do not help anyone. And we must remember it isnt about us, ITS ABOUT THE FISH & FISHERY, Its not where can I go for me to catch fish. Its not always about catching fish, its about the eperience you have on the water, what you learn when you are out, who you may meet on the water or just enjoying nature. Whether you get skunked or not isnt the point either. ITS ALL ABOUT THE FISH & FISHERY. One more thing, this site is seen world wide, and what is said on here is read and not only does it look bad on the typer, but it looks bad on the website which in return makes Gregg look very bad for allowing this to happen on his site. So lets keep the name calling, bashing and just rude comments to yourself or for the PM system. Thats why its there. This is a great forum and I am glad it is here, lets keep things civil and respectfull so it will be here for many yrs to come.

Just my 2cents.
BeNice

-- Edited by BENICE on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 12:21:06 PM

georgek · Veteran Member

My point was that in order to avoid what happened to the lost coast rivers maybe fishing during the steelhead spawn should be looked a little more carefully.

BENICE · Member

What made the decline of our salmon and steelhead fisheries are the erection of the Dams.

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:14:54 PM

SK60 · Senior Member

Enough already!

BENICE · Member

I have been reading this post since it started, so i know what was said, who was called out and what was and is not in this post. I have been fishing putah for a long time, and have seen the changes in this fishery. Its sad to see where it is at today, but happy knowing that it will only get better from here. But it seems that the one thing that wont change is your behavior on this board. When ever there is some negotivity on a post you have your nose right in the middle of it. Remember you are not perfect so dont portray yourself as that. I never said anything about you defending Putah, and that you cant because u have never done anything for putah. I am glad you as well as other do. To be honest we are the only ones that will defend Putah so keep it up. What I am refering to your blatant disregard to commen curtisy and I think we can all say its getting quit old. We have stated the PM issue in the past, but you continue to do the opposite. It seems as when there starts to be a discussion like this you are right in the middle of it ruffling the feathers. Some of the things you say are not even relavent to the subject at hand. Thats why I directed some words towards you. Like you stating to JonVent "I know how you feel about me and I really dont care what you think." Is there really a point behind that. This isnt Days of Our Lives. Dont care who likes who or what issues you may have with someone else. All Jon was saying is that there is a PM set up for that reason, why not use it. But since you dont want to, why should anyone else.

The discussion of fishing for spawners on putah, or other rivers will be a never ending battle. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about these discussions. What is typed one way may be taken completely the opposite. dont start something over miss judgement.

-- Edited by BENICE on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 02:52:04 PM

LilWhippersnapper · Senior Member

-- Edited by LilWhippersnapper on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 07:15:07 PM

BENICE · Member

LILWHIPPER: I guess what I am trying to say is, instead of sitting behind a computer and just typing what others should do. Why not get out there and be active with Putah Creek Trout to make putah a better place. Putting up signs, picking up trash, going around to unaware fisherman and telling them about the new regs, coming to functions and meetings, better yet becoming a member (contributing your member fee which isnt much to PCT nonprofit org) and meeting new people and giving some of your time to a great cause. You know giving back to Putah.

This thread was started to educate. Not to start a debate. The difference between XnJb, Oneweight, and Alastair posting is they did it respectully. You should reread this whole post as an outsider, not as yourself and see the difference on how they sound then you. This was going in the right direction, now it isnt. I remember some previous post that where like this that involved you ended up being deleted. Funny how that is.

Look what was said was said. What happened in the past is in the past. There is no reason for a good post to get so negotive. Hobby knows what he did was wrong and he apologized for it and took down his post. If I remember correctly you did the same thing last year to another member. You posted something then not to long after deleted it.

Educating him was a way to start, but not in a negotive manor. We all have opinions and well we all have buttholes as well, sometimes they stink. LOL. But why not educate the guy like Oneweight did and show him other rivers that fish better than putah that are not that far away. Like the Yuba. Great fishery, lots of fish and lots of fun. Its a yr round fishery that one can learn and have great success. Why not ask him to go fish with you on it. Thats what should have happened. I bet he would have been very thankful for the invite.

Hobbs: What this all comes down to is awareness of Putah and its fagile ecosystem. Like WE have all said, lots of work has gone into Putah to get it where it is today. And more sweat blood and tears will be needed in the future to get it to a wild trout fishery. We are just ASKING not telling you to watch out for spawning fish, yes we would love you to not fish in in the winter but we can not do that. But we can atleast educate you in other areas to fish on putah that will produce fish. As One weight said there are other rivers that fish well this time of yr, the ones he stated are great, dont forget about the Calveras, another great small trout fishery. But the Yuba is where it is at.

-- Edited by BENICE on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 03:01:18 PM

hobbs · Senior Member

Benice, thanks for the suggestions on where to go on the creek and avoid active spawners. But I disagree with one thing you said. It is about the fishing and also the catching. The fishery is there for people to enjoy. Most fisheries (excluding anadromous waterways with native species) have been artificially stocked at some point for the enjoyment of fishermen. Since Lake Solano and Berryessa were impounded, unfortunately Putah definitely falls into the unnatural fishery category. I was just thinking on the drive home yesterday how cool it would be if there was still a good run of salmon and steelhead in the creek.

On that note, I could go cast my fly rod in the muddy canal up the street from my house but the experience would be less than enjoyable and I sure as heck wouldnt catch anything. Its not imperative that I catch fish to enjoy my day but why fish in the first place if you arent excited about the anticipation and the challenge? Why not just go for a nature walk along the creek?

Putah fishes best in the winter not because its the spawn but because the flows are consistent and favorable for fishing. All the fish I have caught have been well under 20 inches (i.e. not the primary spawners). Also I dont use egg patterns as a rule. I never cast to redds and I avoid areas directly below obvious redds....and I rarely fish above Access #1. I have chosen to take these precautions because I do understand how "wild" fisheries work and I DO care about Putah and all other waters for that matter.

This all started because I got upset about posts saying DONT FISH and other post with hypocritical statements. All I have been saying is practice what you preach and use your head when fishing the creek this time of year. As I have said many times, thank you to everyone who has worked so hard to make Putah a great place to visit and fish. I am quickly growing quite fond of the creek and would very much like to get more involved in the future.

Also, I think its perfectly ok to have spirited debates on a blog like this. But yes, it should be kept civil. Thanks to all.

BENICE · Member

I understand where you are coming from Hobby, but understand that the reason putah fishes well in the winter is the LOW FLOWS. Have you fished it when its at 600cfs. The fish are scattered throughout the river, not just stacked up in this hole here or there. When the flows are at 50cfs there isnt as many areas for these fish to hide from preditors, so they stack up in deep pools that are few and far between. The spots you fish now probably have a crap load of fish in it but that is because of 1) low flows, the fish will become more stacked in these holes or runs, its like the bat cave on the LT when the flows go lower than 75cfs, all the food is concentrated into 1 seam instead of multipul so the fish do the same, higher the flow the more scattered the fish, 2) there is a redd near by and those spawners are kicking up insects and eggs, again lower flows keep the fish in tighter groups to feed, 3) possible more oxygen in the pools just below tailouts, the tailouts produce turbulent water which enriches the water with oxygen, low water means lower oxygen waters, tailouts help replenish that. When the flows go back up to normall cfs for the year you will see a completely different river. your runs you fish now may still have fish, but not nearly as many as there are now. Putah is really a 2 sided stepchild. How it fishes now and how it fishes in the summer. Completely 2 different fisherys in one river.

AfricanAngler · Senior Member

georgek wrote:

My point was that in order to avoid what happened to the lost coast rivers maybe fishing during the steelhead spawn should be looked a little more carefully.

Without a doubt.....it is same reason why there are some people on the board trying to raise the idea of fishing Putah during the spwan maybe doing more harm than we think??

Anyway I am going to try make this one my last one on this thread, but to all that care about Putah have a think about joining PCT and helping get Putah back in shape!!!

65Westy · Veteran Member

BENICE wrote:

As One weight said there are other rivers that fish well this time of yr, the ones he stated are great, dont forget about the Calveras, another great small trout fishery. But the Yuba is where it is at.

-- Edited by BENICE on Wednesday 8th of December 2010 03:01:18 PM

I asked about the Calaveras a few days back with less then favorable replies.

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=65954&p=3&topicID=39681498

I'm going regardless and I do thank the one person who actually had some advice for me.