1/18/08 My American River Trip......

brian clemens · Senior Member

1/18/08 My American River Trip......

Packrat · Senior Member

Fighting a fish for 30 minutes is so bad for the fish. As usual, can't can't wait for the pics!

brian clemens · Senior Member

there was nothing i could do, this guy was full of spunk, i did revive him very well after i was done, and when he took of he took off hard, like nothing was wrong. i make sure that when i put my fish back they are more than ready to go back. i just dont throw them into the water, thats just wrong. i sat there for awhile in the water holding him tight, he wanted to take off several times but i didnt let him.

i know 30 mins is long, but hey a 34" steelhead isnt the easiest of fish to land, it might have been 20 mins. all i know is i was at my car at 5:30, and its about a 15 min walk from where i was fishing to the car. so it may had been 20 mins. and i also looked at my clock which said 5:15 after i revived the fish, so ya it was closer to 20 mins.

i sure hope the pic of the big big boy comes out. i know the other ones will. only time will tell.

ill be out there again on friday. hey wyteurp i know i told you that i would fish putah with ya on friday, but how would you feel about hittin the american again. pm me and let me know.

Chris Laskodi · Veteran Member

Brian,
You are either one of the most talented fly fishermen I've ever heard of or one of the luckiest. I've heard no fly guys hooking up on the A at all and you get 3 in one day. I haven't gotten a chance to go out there yet, but I think this week may change things.

Not to get your hopes up or anything, but do you realize that you are now spoiled yourself for life? I think the fish feel pity on new fly fishermen and then once you have been fly fishing for awhile they say screw you. The same thing happened on one of my first trips to the A about 3 years ago when I first moved up here. Hooked 10 fish in one day. Haven't come close since.

I am so jealous of your either skill or luck, not sure which, but I'll take either. My dad and I joke how we have to work 10 times as hard because we've been fishing for so long. We see it all the time, I could go on for days about the people I know who get the biggest fish of their fishing careers on some of their first trips.

May I ask what you got the fish on?

And here's the pic of my first A steel circa 2005

dtp916 · Senior Member

LOL. 34 CM maybe. I think thats what he meant.

ONEWEIGHT · Senior Member

Give Brian a break . . . 30 minutes on a steelhead is not at all unreasonable.� And much tougher fish than trout�and far more hardy.� They have the stomach to put up with this!!!!!!� Nice catch.

JT · Senior Member

Brian,
Congratulations.� It sounds like you had a phenomenal day.� I have one question, though.� How do you tell the difference between a resident rainbow trout and a steelhead that's been in freshwater for a while?�

shon42073 · Senior Member

Thats a great fish Chris, Is that a san juan worm on its lip ? Thats a good point JT. Brian, I assume all the sleelhead had a clipped adipose ?

brian clemens · Senior Member

chris i was using glo bugs, princes, and birds nest,

cappy, as far as san juans, i did talk to a guy that was hookin on san juan worms.

as far as me catching fish that day. lets just say i have a very informable birdy that told me where to go, and the steelhead stack up at this spot that i fished. thats all i am going to say. and i will know at about 8pm tonight if i am going to go again tomorrow morning.

as far as the steelhead go, i caught 3, the 28"er was wild, and the 20"er and the 34"er where hatchery fish. 34 CM, hahaha your funny packrat. the tape measure never lies.

Good Question JT

now as far as the trout, steelhead situation.

in the american you have the resident rainbow trout non anadromous, and the steelhead which is anadromous.

ill start off with steelhead and rainbow trout aka redband trout are members of the same species, oncorhyncus mykiss. however, steelhead migrate to the ocean for up to three years before returning to their native river to spawn, and rainbow trout just stay in the river. unlike salmon, steelhead can survive to spawn more than once.

the rainbow trout are unusual in that there are two forms which sometimes share the same habitat. the anadromous form called "steelhead" migrate to the ocean, though they must return to fresh water to reproduce.

the freshwater form is called "redband trout", based on the broad red band along their sides. Steelhead are exactly the same species as rainbow trout. However, the difference is anadromy. after going to sea, their color changes, including loss of the red band. they stay at sea for 1-4 years, and return to fresh water to spawn. rainbows stay in fresh water their whole lives.

it is a common misconception that "redband trout" and "steelhead" are the same fish. while there are closely related, redbands are a different subspecies, somewhat between a rainbow and cutthroat trout (oncorhynchus clarki). redbands have larger spots and darker colors than steelhead and sometimes have cutthroat-like slash marks, but not the cutthroat's longer maxilla or hyoid (basibranchial) teeth.

steelhead also tend to be more silvery than the freshwater rainbow trout (redband trout) form. lake and stream dwellers tend to be lighter as well. river dwelling rainbow trout are generally darker and more brilliant. in all habitats, rainbow's backs varies from blue or green to a yellow-green or brown. they always have dark spots on their heads, backs, bellies and across their dorsal fins and caudal fins, a famed attribute of TRUE TROUT. rainbows also have a red or pink streak that runs from the gill cover to the caudal fin, inspiring their name. Steelhead usually lack the pink stripe and have chrome-colored sides.

unlike other pacific salmon, rainbow trout and steelhead do not necessarily die after spawning (they may spawn as many as four times). all pacific salmon, including male steelhead, undergo changes when spawning or migrating to spawn. they change color, head and mouth shape. steelhead populations and rainbow trout populations can and do interbreed at different levels. which i think is where we get out putah chain from. it is possible for the offspring of rainbow trout to become anadromous and for the offspring of steelhead to develop a resident life history.

rainbows range from 12 to 36 inches in length. steelhead grow longer, ranging from 20 to 48 inches in length. steelhead range in weight from 4 to 22 pounds. the world record rainbow trout was a 43.6 pound caught from the shore at Lake Diefenbaker, Saskatchewan in June 2007.

hope this is a good description bewteen resident rainbow trout also known as REDBAND and the anadromous cousin the STEELHEAD.

but if i am wrong or you have something more to add please post it.

timmosazz · Senior Member

Brian you sound like you have been studying. Hey good job on those stellies.

brian clemens · Senior Member

thanks, i wanted to know what the difference was for myself, especially after i caught that resident trout on the AR. kinda glad i did. didnt know it would come in handing in a short period of time.

Chris Laskodi · Veteran Member

Captain,
The fly I got that fish on was a Vitamin D. Its basically a giant PT with an orange bead head and orange rubber legs.

You've got some of the differences right Brian. I'll try to explain it the best I can as well.

Basically there is no genetic difference between rainbow trout and steelhead. They are the exact same species Oncorhynchus mykiss, they just have different life history patterns. Steelhead are of course anadromous, meaning they travel to sal****er to grow and return to fresh to spawn, and rainbow trout are not. The only real way to tell if a fish is truly the anadromous form is to take otolith samples, which are found in the inner ear, which then requires killing the fish. You can sometimes use scale samples but those may not be entirely accurate. Another funny fact about the whole steelhead thing is that just because a fish may be offspring of a steelhead, there is no guarantee that the offspring will be. Many of the offspring end up being the resident form. No one knows why, but it just goes to show that there really is no difference between steelhead and rainbow trout genetically.

Brian is also sort of correct about the sizes and general appearance of steelhead. Again there is really nothing set in stone, you can't go by size since this is not always a definite indicator, there's lots of places where they coexist and big resident rainbows can be as large if not larger than the steelhead that exist in the same waters. Generally rainbows are more colored but if they are living in lakes and large waters they often take on the silvery appearance that a steelhead has. Likewise for steelhead, many in the central valley are pretty colored up and you rarely get the chrome, almost gunmetal color of silver that you see in the coastal areas. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but the picture I showed above would be what I consider to be a bright fish for the central valley. This is why if you look at your steelhead report card, that to consider any fish over 16" to be a steelhead. It may not be but for reporting purposes it is.

Redbands are actually a different subspecies than rainbow trout. They are considered the precursor to modern rainbow trout. There are only a few remnant populations in CA like the McCloud River Redband, Warner Lakes Redband, and Pit River Redband, all are members of the Oncorhynchus myskiss species but some may be subspecies, there is work being done on classifying all these fish as we speak. The true redband is especially prevalent in Oregon, there is a natural barrier that prevented true rainbow trout from getting into the rivers but I cannot remember for the life of me where. I'm pretty sure this happened during the last ice age though.

JT, the question about telling the difference on the A about steelhead and residents. There are no residents on the American, or at least not many, so everything is considered anadromous. All fish from the hatchery have their adipose fin clipped, but there is natural spawning in the A. The reason we have such large fish in the A versus other valley streams is these are Eel River Strain which are known for their large size. There are very few, if any 'native' populations left because of the hatchery. There may be a spring run, same time as shad run, that may be an original population but its hard to tell.

Sorry this is so long, this is what I am studying at UCD, so I'm pretty familiar with a lot of the current work being done.

Also Brian, you might want to consider moving up to the 8 wt, because 30" fish are not all that uncommon this time of year. You shouldn't need to fight a fish for 30 mins even if it is big.

dtp916 · Senior Member

Chris' info is accurate.

brian clemens · Senior Member

well as far as the fish that i landed, i know it was a resident trout. i do have the pic of it as well so when i get the roll developed ill post the pics. as far as the trout goes it had the same disctict markings and color of a putah trout, same very very bright red band for its lateral line. very dark in color, compared to the bright silvery apperance of the 3 steelhead that i landed.

as far as the 6wt-8wt issue. if i have the skill to land 25"+ steelhead on it, without injuring the fish there shouldnt be an issue. i take great care in reviving any fish i catch whether it be a 3min fight or 30min fight. anyways as i described early,it could have been 20 mins. even if it was 30 mins, i sat in the water for a good 10mins, to make sure this guy was good to go. thats why i said could have been 20mins, there was 10min of reviving. i dont just thrown them back in hoping they make it. there were spey guys there fighting fish between the 24-30" mark for a good 15 mins, and when landed just lettin them go without reviving them, and they had 10-12ft spey rods, i was working with a non fightin butt 9ft 2pc 6wt rod. its a blast. i dont have all the money in the world, so if i have a 6wt to work with and i can and i can go out and land 28"+ steelhead on it and have fun doing it, and i revive my fish properly, then i am not doing anything wrong.

thats how i look at it.

Black Cloud · Senior Member

I agree that chris's info was correct. The fish you caught with a red stripe was a spawning steelhead. Go up to the hatchery and look in the run, that is all you will see.

timmosazz · Senior Member

Hey I am all for protecting the fish and not stressing them out but what is worse bringing in a fish after a long fight and then spending the time to revive it? Or breaking off the fly and possibly injuring the fish doing so? I mean when fishing for steelhead you are using a leader strong enough to hold on to that fish in a current, so who says when trying to break off the fly you dont tear out a chunk of the fishes mouth or jaw. I thnk it is a judgement call.

brian clemens · Senior Member

these spey rod guys would fight the steelhead in the current for a while, then walk them down stream and fight them some more down there. then take the hook out and send them on there way. not hold them in the current for a while or nothing. i dont care if its a 5min fight or 20 mins. either way i will hold the fish in the current just to make sure the fish is good to go.

shon42073 · Senior Member

I was at the nimbus hatchery last winter and it was loaded with steelhead plenty of fish 15 lbs and over I would estimtate.

Chris Laskodi · Veteran Member

Brian,
I'm not trying to single you out or anything but I thought you said you owned an 8 wt. I'm a firm believer in using the right equipment for the job, and a 6 wt is simply too small when a 30"+ fish is a very reasonable proposition. It sounds like your rod did not have the backbone to bring that big fish in, or your drag was set to light. The 8 wt would solve that problem and you wouldn't be fighting the fish for more than a several minutes. And just because you sat there and revived the fish still doesn't mean it is going to make it. The lactic acid built up over the course of the fight can easily kill the fish as well.

Bottom line, if it takes you more than 10 minutes to land any trout/steelhead, you are probably doing something wrong. Change your approach. Put more pressure on the fish and don't play the hold the rod up in the air game. Either the fish is taking line or you are, no in-between. This goes for everyone, I'm tired of seeing it on Putah as well.

And I don't doubt what you are saying about the so-called spey guys. 90% think that they don't have to play by the rules because they fish 'traditionally'. They are usually the worst when it comes to caring about the fish. I see it every year on the American.

shon42073 · Senior Member

I'll say that I've never did much steelhead fishing, But I have been to most of the valley rivers. I'd assume that an 8 weight is gonna not only allow one to land a fish in a timely fashion But is going to be a huge advantage when it comes to casting distance.

brian clemens · Senior Member

hey i had a blast and thats all that matters, using a 6wt with a good reel can be used, and was it is a challange yes, which i like.

hey cappy, where i fish on the american you dont need to cast farther than 15-20ft at most. its just like putah fishing. just on a much larger scale.

JT · Senior Member

brian clemens wrote:

well as far as the fish that i landed, i know it was a resident trout.

Brian,
The point I was trying to make with�my question was the one that Chris has explained.� Steelhead and rainbow trout are the same fish.� When steelhead have been in freshwater for some time, they will take on the coloration of a resident rainbow.� Even experts can't tell if the fish have seen salt, or not, without killing them.� Resident rainbows are extremely rare on the Lower American, so I'm pretty sure that the fish you caught was a steelhead in spawning colors.�

brian clemens · Senior Member

well in that case. i guess its a steelhead. oh well. looked just like a putah trout in spawning colors. awsome looking fish. loved every minute of it.

Black Cloud · Senior Member

It is a common misconception to underestimate people. You are the prince of Putah , the Ayatolla of the American, the lord of the water rings, we salute you, high five. For those of you who want to know or need to know, I close with the words of a great phliosopher, a very knowledgeable person whose name I can't recall, who said "You go grasshopper". The other esteemed one Pogo said "We have met the enemy and he is us".

dtp916 · Senior Member

LOL, Black Cloud.

I finally saw a pic of the fish you landed, what a beast! Bottom right photo on:

http://www.putahcreekflyfishing.com/photoalbum1a.html

Congrats again, dude. What a fish. Nailed the prince or birdy dropper?

AC22 · Senior Member

brian clemens wrote:

as far as me catching fish that day. lets just say i have a very informable birdy that told me where to go, and the steelhead stack up at this spot that i fished.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I wish i could talk to birds.....lucky man brian

Packrat · Senior Member

brian clemens wrote:

lets just say i have a very informable birdy that told me where to go, and the steelhead stack up at this spot that i fished.

34 CM, hahaha your funny packrat. the tape measure never lies.

It might sound like something I'd say but it wasn't me who mentioned 34 centimeters! And I know your secret spot...right in front of the hatchery ladders

-- Edited by Packrat at 21:27, 2008-01-20

Packrat · Senior Member

Black Cloud wrote:

I agree that chris's info was correct. The fish you caught with a red stripe was a spawning steelhead. Go up to the hatchery and look in the run, that is all you will see.

Exactly correct. Fish fresh into the system from the ocean are bright silver but the longer in fresh water they get into spawning colors just like the rainbows on Putah get darker on the back and brighter red on the sides. Also good call on Redbands being a sub-species, not the same as rainbows.

dtp916 · Senior Member

Packrat wrote:

�And I know your secret spot...right in front of the hatchery ladders
�

Didn't Brian re-open don't fish the redds thread...?

�

brian clemens · Senior Member

no it wasnt infront of the ladders.

a great man once said

WHAT YOUs THINK OF ME IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

i will just keep fishing and having fun.