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RETURN to Putah Creek Trout -> Putah Creek Fly Fishing Forum -> Putah Creek Fly Fishing -> Don't Fish on the Redds; General Discussion
Post Info TOPIC: Don't Fish on the Redds; General Discussion
brian clemens


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Don't Fish on the Redds; General Discussion
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Ok as we all know, there was a post started by "THE CAPTAIN" about an "UNETHICAL GUIDE" that was deleted the other day. Every single one of us did not take this guide fishing the redds lightly, and a few of us took it to the next level. It was deleted for that purpose. I myself would like to start this off by saying that I am sorry for contributing to that mess.

I am now reopening this thread and I am asking that all of us who would like to contribute to this thread do it with respect, and we all know that a few of use including myself started to get of hand. So lets not do that again. PLEASE.
 
There are a few of us, I will not mention names, that did see first hand what was either being said or what was being done with the guide and his clients. That doesnt matter anymore, and this is to educate and get to a some insite on why this was being done.

I was given permission to start this topic again and I would like to start it up a calm, respectable discussion about us and others fishing for the spawners on their redds, either being a TROUT BUM or a GUIDE, NEWBIE or VETERAN. You are all welcome to the open discussion about fishing the redds.

In my eyes i believe that NO ONE should fish the redds, guide or not. Those lil guys have enough stress in their lives, let alone someone trying to catch them everyday they go out. You know that those spots are fished harder and longer than any other spots on the creek this time of yr so why do you do it. The more you fish the redds the more stress that is put on the fish and there is a possibility that they may not spawn and even die.  Which none of us want, and we all know that it will cause a decline in lil bows the following yr, and so on.

As far as the statement of "We are all fishing spawners this time of yr." Yes and No. YES, because all the fish do come up to spawn, so in essence we are fishing the spawners. BUT. NO, because most of us dont fish the spawners that are on their REDDS. There is a big difference between the spawning fish on there redds, and those still in the pools and pockets waiting to spawn.

We all know that there will still be people out there that will fish the redds. It is up to us to protect those spawners and educate those that dont know any better. I believe that the "UNETHICAL" word was used because well to be quit frank, YOU KNOW BETTER! The person that was guiding knows that it is harmful to fish the redds but you were doing it anyways. thats why you were called UNETHICAL.

THIS IS NOT TO GET OUT OF HAND AGAIN, IF IT DOES IT WILL BE DELETED AND THIS TOPIC WILL NOT BE BROUGHT UP AGAIN.

This thread is to educate, and understand why the "SO CALLED UNETHICAL GUIDE" was showing people how to fish the redds. It will give him a chance to explain his side of there story and to see if we can all come to some type of conclusion with fishing the redds either guiding or not.

AGAIN PLEASE KEEP IT CLEAN, RESPECTFUL, AND CURTIOUS, we do have a few youngsters on here, so again clean, respectful, curtious and dont forget EDUCATIONAL.

Please post what is ever on your mind, RESPECTFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And MR. "SO CALLED UNETHICAL GUIDE" I would personally like you to post as well.

Thank You
Brian C.






-- Edited by brian clemens at 19:39, 2007-12-12

-- Edited by brian clemens at 19:47, 2007-12-12

-- Edited by brian clemens at 19:49, 2007-12-12

-- Edited by kbigelow at 19:53, 2007-12-12

-- Edited by kbigelow at 01:07, 2007-12-16

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Otter


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I guess since you opened up the can of worms I would like to throw in a few words. I don't know what you saw, but there will always be people targeting the spawners, mostly because they don't know. Try to educate those that you see. At this point in the season there are several spots on the creek that fish hang out that are not spawning. One question I have is. Is it OK to fish the riffles below the spawners. This is the way steelheaders fish.

You should see the posts on Kiene's board. They are arguing about if it is ethical to use beads and glo bugs. It happens every year. If you are fishing in late December through early February most of the fish are spawning. Steelhead or trout on Putah.

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RE: ISSUE with the "UNETHICAL GUIDE" General Discussion
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The problem is you just can't bash one guy who was seen fishing to spawners. I was out there on Monday the 10th and saw guys all up and down the creek fishing to actively spawning fish! There was a guy near the bridge who actually ran through the parking lot to get to the water before me and my buddy finished getting geared up. Where was he fishing when we walked down...right at the tail out where we all know there are fish on redds. We ended up moving because we didn't want to fish spawners. (dude, if you're on this board you were acting like it was your first time hooking a fish) As we were driving downstream there were 2 guys actually standing where I know there are redds at the tip of the island at the deer sign fishing for spawners. In the past I have myself been guilty of getting big fish fever and fishing for spawners but with fly fishing experience comes conservation, with me anyways. Let the big guys spawn so they can pass on their good genes. It's very easy to play out a spawner and just have it die after being released. It's disappointing to see guys trying for these huge fish... let see some real skill and catch them that big when they're not spawning, then I'll be impressed!

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brian clemens


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yes for below the spawners, no for targeting the spawners on the redds.

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Packrat


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Otter wrote:

I guess since you opened up the can of worms I would like to throw in a few words. I don't know what you saw, but there will always be people targeting the spawners, mostly because they don't know. Try to educate those that you see. At this point in the season there are several spots on the creek that fish hang out that are not spawning. One question I have is. Is it OK to fish the riffles below the spawners. This is the way steelheaders fish.

You should see the posts on Kiene's board. They are arguing about if it is ethical to use beads and glo bugs. It happens every year. If you are fishing in late December through early February most of the fish are spawning. Steelhead or trout on Putah.





I actually think fishing beads is not legal in CA. I know they do it Alaska though. Fishing to Steelhead when they are spawning is an iffy subject, when they are spawning it's the only time to fish for them. I think people have to learn what a fish on a redd looks like and not target those fish.

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brian clemens


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you can us bead and hook in cali, steelhead i dont know about, but i use them when i am salmon fishing, a bead at the end of your line with a hook. is actually legal. i cant wait to hit up salmon fishing with my fly rod. i am done with the 10'6" rod with 20lb power pro,elbow to elbow with greasy stinky men.

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timmosazz


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RE: ISSUE with the "UNETHICAL GUIDE" General Discussion
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Brian it sounds like you have ben salmon fishing at Nimbus dam. ( Combat Fishing)
 I agree that the key to solving this problem( fishing the reds ) for the average joe is education. But you saw a guide bringing hid clients to fish the reds? That is the worst thing I have ever about a guide. That is like a guide taking a client to fish right in front of a fish hatchery. Potching! Trying to stay cool here.

-- Edited by timmosazz at 20:59, 2007-12-12

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flygirl1


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This would all be a non-issue if they just closed Putah to all fishing from Dec to March. Any fish you can see in the creek at this time of year is a spawner. Whether it is on the redds or below. Just have a little self-dicipline and find somewhere else to fish for the next few months.

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memebop


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I'm glad I read the whole string tonite.  

I was fishing Putah Creek today and was fishing at several big guys holding in current.   Luckily I didn't hook any.  

Sometimes the problem is just ignorance.   I knew that snagging was illegal. . .  I didn't think about the ethics of fishing for the spawning trout.

This may come from my bass fishing past where "anything goes" as demonstrated on TV w/ the BASSMASTERS often seeking out spawning fish.  I have never liked that and never done it, but with my newness in the fly fishing arena, I didn't quite get what I was doing.  I may just take the Winter off.  When they are spawning, I don't really see how you can avoid hooking spawning fish if you wanted to. 

memebop

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Lahontan


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Good Evening Everyone,

Thanks for restarting the thread Brian.  First, remember gang, this is California. I'm not talking fishing, I'm speaking law, labor practices, and political climate. I am not an attorney. I am a career retailer...but I know many of you are employers or managers ... you KNOW there are things you or your employees just can't say in California. USE YOUR HEAD before you speak or post.

Flygirl makes a very provocative point ... close the creek during spawning season ... hmmm. Maybe restrict certain runs???  It's my experience that these kind of restrictions come to situations that can't be managed thru common sense and ethical conduct. An idea that has merit.

I was raised, taught, and further learned that fishing "open" water during these times is fair game.  Staying out of the shallows, pocket water where the fishes conduct is clearly geared towards the happy dance, and duuuhhhhhh REDDS is just good "sportsmanship".  I must cop to 2 eye opening occurances.

This last Sunday, I was fishing a long, fast moving run, and hooked a monster. Hooked him clean in the mouth. As I pulled him up from the depths, YES in open water, I saw the fishes "mate" (?) follow (him/her) up. This other fish remained in the "vicinity" as I tried to bring the fish to hand. My fish came unbottoned, but I fished this run for 2 more hours, up and down. I saw these fish, and/or others of similar size moving thru the area. It occured to me that they might have had redds in the vicinity or been on their way to such sites.

'Bout 2 weeks back, I foul hooked 2 good sized fish on the same day. I felt very guilty about this. Each was released/resesitated seemingly unharmed. This happened in places where I believe fish were "traveling", but there size and color caused me to "take pause" and think about whether I should be fishing or not at this time.

We live in a time with talk of global warming, and a gozillian other moral and ethical dilemmas to ponder. There will be people on Putah, as everywhere else, that will have little or no regard for ethics let alone the law.

As for me, to fish or not to fish?? hmmm...I'll probably continue fishing ... I do know that I will work hard to tread lightly, as I've grown to REALLY like this place in a very short time! 

In my business, we often talk about how leaders are good shepards of the right strategies, ideas, and practices.  I don't think Putah is any different.

Thanks for reading,

Ed

-- Edited by Lahontan at 22:20, 2007-12-12

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Chris Laskodi


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I personally do not fish the redds but I do fish close to them. A lot of non-spawning fish are also on or near the redds feasting on the eggs and bugs that are kicked up when the fish are digging.

The biggest problem is that the non-spawners are often mixed in with the spawners and you often see them getting chased off by the spawners. I fish for these fish all the time and you can immediately tell the difference the moment you hook them, they are hot.

Although I do catch the occasional spawner, it is often below the redds where they are resting or feeding and there really is nothing you can do about it. There are fish like this throughout the creek and the only way to avoid it is to stop fishing. Almost everyone of your big fish pics this time of year are spawning fish or about to spawn fish no matter where you catch them.

I don't worry about it too much if I'm fishing and I hook a spawner in a legitimate spot, i.e. not off a redd. I just bring them in as fast as possible and get on to fishing. If you're avoiding fishing the spawners, thats good enough for me.

Here's a couple of pictures of non-spawners and spawners its pretty easy to tell the difference. The non-spawners were caught below a redd and the spawner in a deep pool.

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brian clemens


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This is what i like to see. These posts are great, and meaningfull. Thanks everyone.

As far as bass, large or small mouth, they will fight for there beds, trout will not, bass will go back to there beds after being caught, trout sometimes dont. they key here is bass will litterally fight for their young/bed, as trout will not, if something hits there bed they dont care. bass with instinctively grab it and take it off their bed.

it is hard not to fish putah right now, especially all the big fish that are coming up. yes the big fish are spawners but as many of you have thrown out there, if we are fishing deep pools and fast runs, thats fine, we are not targeting the redds. but also stated above, fishing the redds to purposely catch the big spawners is completely wrong. Potching, in some eyes, yes, in mine very much so. so in my eyes fishing redds should be illegal. just think of it this way. you cant fish from the hatchery at hazel ave all the way down to ancel hoffemen right, well thats because the salmon and steelhead spawn there. so you cant fish there. Yes they dont close putah at the spawning areas, but its the same exact thing. Fish redds in my mind is potching and unethincal.

i have found a new place in my heart for putah, its has always been close to me since i started fishing it in august, but in the last few times out seeing the scenary, catching fish, and most off, the sight of these great fish spawning have really made me weak, and i want to do as much as i can to make people aware of spawning fish on putah and not trying to catch them.

so again thanks everyone for keeping clean. lets keep this one rolling. and remember, fish below, fish above, but never fish on. Save our native population of trout, watch your step, and please dont fish the redds.

tight lines
keep um legal,
hahaha
brian

wow just realized that i sound like an environmentalist.

-- Edited by brian clemens at 22:54, 2007-12-12

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bkerbs


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I admire this board and all the regulars that contribute there knowledge and insite from personal fishing experiences. Even though I don't reside in california any more, i still like to check this forum. The passion and catuion for such a small creek that really has limited fishing is wonderful. I'm not going to state my opinion on this, but I just wanted everyone to keep the good work up. I do think that this small forum can produce big change for putah creek, a place that sits close to my fly fishing roots. Keep believeing that putah can be something special for everyone.

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flygirl1


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I still say the creek should be closed from Dec to March to let these fish spawn in peace. As much as you may try to avoid the spawners, you can't. They are everywhere, so in my mind there are no "legitimate" spots to fish there right now. It also doesn't help to post pictures of these big fish and rave about how great it is to fish for the "hogs". All that does is entice more guys to grab there rods and fish the low flow.

You can't have it both ways. You can't post how great it is to fish for the big ones in one breath, and then turn around and post about how bad it is to fish for the spawners in the other. That is hypocrisy at it's best and I am reading a lot of that right now. If you can't help yourself and need to get your Putah "big fish" fix at least stop advertising how big they are and where you are catching them. Most of us know Putah well enough at this point to figure out where you are fishing without being given too much detail.

Don't mean to be the trout bitch here, but I love this creek also and just don't like seeing these fish stressed.

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flyfishingjunkie


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Haven't posted for some time, but this thread compelled me to jump on board.

I must say that I am somewhat surprised that a guide would take their clients to fish over spawners. I have been fishing Putah for 10 years and have fished for spawners myself in the days when I just didn't know any better. After once seeing 6 guys rotating through the spawning bed below the bridge I realized how wrong it was. I stopped fishing Putah when the spawn is in full swing. My recommendation to everyone is, fish with moderation. Don't fish the obvious spawning areas, but don't forget that all big fish will eventually spawn. There is no reason to hammer fish. I think one mistake we flyfishermen make is that we think that since we release fish we can catch as many as we can. My approach now is that I set a limit and after it is reached I move on. Other thing to do is to switch to less productive techniques, such as swinging flies (o.k some times that can be very productive) and enjoy the fishing.

What still amazes me is that with all the hammering of the creek there are still tons of fish.

Tight lines.

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101fish


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Having been around the fly fishing industry for several years now, people fish redds more often than many like to admit. Last year on the American guys would wait until they see the fish move onto it, then rush in and cast. I can say that guides targeting fish (especially steelhead) on redds is not an uncommon practice at all, and those are some of our most important environmental capital. For the most part, guides are under immense pressure to preform for their clients, several hundred dollars worth, and a skunk is not acceptable. Under those circumstances I can see why they would break down and fish redds. That being said, it is not a good practice for them to fish on the redds and I don't agree with it. Even immediately behind them can be tricky as it can be far to easy to quarter up on to the redds and pick up an active spawner. What a lot of people don't realize is that behind the redds there can be spawned out fish and fish getting ready to move onto the redd.

Personally, FFjunky has a great point, during the spawn don't bobber fish at all. Swing flies or something that a fish will generally need to be active to take.

Putah is an indicator happy fishery, and I am not knocking them, they catch fish and have saved me from the skunk; however, other techniques work well there as well and maybe the spawn is a good time to try them out.

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brian clemens


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flygirl you bring up a great point dont get me wrong, the topic at hand here isnt not fishing putah for the spawners, because we all know that this time of yr the fish come up to spawn, but the topic is the fishing for those spawners that are spawning on their redds, and purposely targeting those fish, not only as a non guide, but being a guide makes it much more unethical, making money off of those fish that are on there redds and so helpless, easy to snag, and just plain out in the open for everyone to see.

i understand completely where you are coming from. and understand your side of the story as well. putah should be closed, so know one fishes it. but on the other hand most of us that do fish putah this time of yr, tread lightly, take care of the fish that we do catch, and most of all, we do not target those fish that are on there redds.

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mx19


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I took my reply out....Iam going to just sit back and remind myself thats it its
x mas...I have a lot of other more useful things to do with my time...

mx19



-- Edited by mx19 at 12:34, 2007-12-13

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JT


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I think everybody just needs to go fishing.  It's been way to long for me--about a month now.  But finals are over (I took my last one today), so I may have to find some time to get out there myself.

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Well said mx.
What up JT.

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brian clemens


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mx-19 you and me have had a few emails back and forth, and you know where i stand.

as far as where you are trying to go with what you said, you truly are not gettin the purpose of this post. i am not bad mouthing anyone, and judgeing anyone, thats not the this is for educational purposes. no one is giving gossip and as far as worrying about ourselves, that is not the case at all, we are worried about people fishing the redds. thats the reason for this post. people fishing the post. this post is not judging anyone what so ever. the purpose of me reopening this thread is help us educate others that may not know that it is wrong. and also to figure out why the guide was fishing the redds.


jt hope you get out there and fish. maybe even see you out there.



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chemdoc


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While I don't agree with Flygirl in closing the creek for the entire winter, she does have an excellent point regarding posts about catching huge fish.  Everyone is excited when this happens and wants to share with the group, but I can't help but wonder how many more people are fishing Putah right now because of the daily "hog reports".  It even has me coming to the creek more often than usual.  It may also encourage people to fish the redds, since they want to have the same success as others are reporting, and not knowing where those folks are catching the big fish, they go to the surest place, the spawning areas.

It is still possible to catch non-spawners now, especially on dries.  Admittedly, I have been catching smaller fish lately, but am still having a good time.  And I definitely hope to get into some of those big fish myself, and with Christmas break for the next few weeks, hopefully I will.


Phil


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brian clemens


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you bring up a great point chemdoc, i think we should just start posting of the fish landed and not the sizes and if people want to know more in detail on what was catch, used or anything that might help out you should pm them instead of posting out load. i know i have done that alot. i have stopped posting the spots, but still throw out there the sizes of the fish landed or hooked.

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chemdoc


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I also like the PM system.  I often send messages directly to other board members if I am interested on information on flies, getting together to fish, etc.
I don't mind sharing information individually with fellow board members, but don't always post details for the general public.

Phil

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Xnjb707X


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   I have a sugestion, Lets make putah in the off season Dry Fly only. biggrin


- Nic








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Lahontan


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I think everybody would agree that it is the hope of most that this board be a force for positive change and conduct.  It would also however, be naive ... as flygirl and others have put it so passionately, to not recognize the increased "traffic" the creek recieves as a result of "jubulient" posts! (spellingconfused)

I had posted the following on another thread a week or so back ... some of you might find it humorous ... after all ... Putah isn't realllllly such a great place!

wink wink nudge nudge

I'm kind of with captain ... it may be time for some ...

Gloom, dispair and agony on me; deep dark depression, excessive misery....
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all, Gloooooom, deeeeespaaaaair, and AGonnnnneeyyyyy on meeeeeee...

...posts.

Too cold to fish, Too windy to fish, Fish aren't feeding, no hatch, the blackberry brambles are to scratchy, I got jiggers the last time I went fishing, I saw Sasquatch peeing in my favorite spot, all of the coooool kids are throwing nightcrawlers up at Berryessa, I used the port a potty at #1 and got herpes, I heard that only sissy's fished Putah, flows are way to low on the weekend, flows are way to high during the week, uhhhhhhh ....

The hogs have all left to speak with their therapists, they can't get over their aversion to #20 black / red zebra midges.

winkwinkwinkwinkwinkwinkwinkwinkwinkwinkblankstare



-- Edited by Lahontan at 16:46, 2007-12-13

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WT


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First of all, I cannot help but think that part of this discussion does not go back to a previous thread about marking well know spawning zones.

Secondly, if we are going to have a conversation on the "ethics" of fishing the redds, or fishing for spawning fish, then we have to come to some kind of agreement about how we are going to "do ethics." I read a lot of these post and they all get the point across that people care, but they all have different starting points for "doing ethics." If we cannot agree from where we are going to do ethics, then we are not going to be able to have a productive converstaion about something we all care about.

My suggestion: A proleptic ethic
Let's start with what we all seem to want... a health stream which supports native trout. Okay now everytime we go to the creek we think what can we do to make this possible... what kind of practices can I employ which promotes a healthy stream which supports native trout... then do it! Participate in the future yet to be fully actualized.... A proleptic ethic

Just my thought

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Matt R


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Flygirl,Chemdoc your right  way more people will fish the creek and the redds with all the hype. Especially the pictures.  I know I cut back on posting about my fish trips on the creek. I can tell others dont post like they used to either or they're not fishing as much (yeah right).
Personally what I think is the fish are alot tougher than we give them credit for. people have been pounding spawners for years now. people have been taking big natives out of the creek for years too. yet there's still fish to catch. I'm not saying anythings right or wrong. except purposely snagging. If there's no law about fishing for spawners than some people will and some people wont. Lets just hope you wont.

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shon42073


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RE: ISSUE with the "UNETHICAL GUIDE" General Discussion
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All good points. I' just sit this one out. And stop posting any reports or pics. Good god JT, a month without wetting a line, It hurts just to read it.

-- Edited by thecaptain at 18:47, 2007-12-13

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cole


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RE: ISSUE with the "UNETHICAL GUIDE" General Discussion
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I am sort of with Flygirl as well. I would hate it but since even Bono said the fishery has depleted in the last few years I think a closure for a couple few years would be interesting. There are other places open this year and it's a drive but....the other thing is with a complete closure for the off season some people may look at it more seriously. In other words things besided the fishing could get better. The overall picture I'm imaging Putah used to be.  The other thing is the 5 fish limit with absolutely no size regulations on it during the regular season.  In other words it would be nothing over 14" or whatever.  There's places nowhere near as good as Putah with two fish limits and size regs.  2 fish per day, nothing bigger than 14".

-- Edited by cole at 18:59, 2007-12-13

-- Edited by cole at 16:59, 2007-12-15

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