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SK60 · Senior Member

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Cole Davis · Senior Member

Your response is solicited Steve. A lot of folks would be pissed by a winter closure on Putah but I agree with Nic and others at this point. After being out there the other day seeing how clogged up the normal redds are and less fish are spawning in some of the usual sights, still some fish around obviously but still. Steelhead rods are cheap now, grab one and you may catch a "Real" fish of a lifetime.

Otter · Senior Member

The saga continues. It is like a Star Wars series every year. This week it is Obe Wan Kanobe versus Darth Vader.... I have put this out there before, but I would like to see the major spawning areas closed. This is what has happened on the Kings River. This would allow the people that fish ethically to fish. The people on the Dark Side would be forced to go elsewhere or fish ethically.

georgek · Veteran Member

Lower kings?

bono · Master Fly Fishing Guide

Steve very very well put, I said it before and I'll say it again we need to pursue the partial closure of the creek. The awareness and momentum that has started right here on Putah and at this site is kinda exciting,lets just keep getting the word out there. BTW the last few clients of mine have been hooking some decent fish 10 to 17" on mayfly dries on Putah right now, I'll say no more!!! biggrin

jvento · Senior Member

I too agree, very well put Steve. I believe you hit the theme perfectly, "Convenient Justification." This has been a reoccurring sentiment throughout the spawning season. Ultimately what we have is a head butting match between people who are trying to run a business and people who are trying to preserve a fishery. That being said... To first fight for the right to have a partial closure, or for that matter, any type of closure during the spawning season and then in the same post promote fishing on Putah is rather hypocritical. What if the fish on AFFC was taken on a dry, would the controversy then be over? Dries or not, the fish are spawning. There really can't be a gray area, this is a black and white matter.

-Jon

georgek · Veteran Member

The problem I had with the AFFC was less that they were catching spawners (which still bugs me), and more how they are doing it. I already said it but ill say it again. Last year a friend of mine was told that fishing to spawners and fishing around redds was/is not ethical by the guys at AFFC, then they turn around and started showing pictures of spawning fish that they had caught up there the previous day. I had a similar experience in there two weeks ago. Their report says to avoid redds and let fish do their thing in peace, then they put up pictures of fish that are about to explode with eggs. It seems to me that they have more concern about other people fishing on the redds; because it will take away from their client's fish count/size, and less concern about actually doing the right thing.

Xnjb707X · Senior Member

jvento wrote:
I too agree, very well put Steve. I believe you hit the theme perfectly, "Convenient Justification." This has been a reoccurring sentiment throughout the spawning season. Ultimately what we have is a head butting match between people who are trying to run a business and people who are trying to preserve a fishery. That being said... To first fight for the right to have a partial closure, or for that matter, any type of closure during the spawning season and then in the same post promote fishing on Putah is rather hypocritical. What if the fish on AFFC was taken on a dry, would the controversy then be over? Dries or not, the fish are spawning. There really can't be a gray area, this is a black and white matter.

-Jon

> As you said there is no gray area, It's black and white. Close it or keep it open. People will break rules regardless. Keep the creek open during general trout season. Nothing wrong with that in my eyes, yes if does suck that you wouldn't be able to fish the creek in the winter, if those fish were left alone the creek would just make a huge improvement. Give a little to get more in the long run..

SK60 · Senior Member

Thanks for the responses and comments re closure (partial or full). Even proposing a closure requires crafting a strong, fact based story that has to have widespread support from all stakeholders in the fishery and little opposition. The economic impact to guides is potentially major, there are a number of FF that only fish it in winter, DFG would have to support it, etc. A proposal then has to be submitted and walked thru numerous FGC meetings, public comment, and stand the review process. Most proposals fail-its just the nature of the game. Heres what I see as a possible path: Close the first mile for the month of January. This is the area and time when the spawn is heaviest. To support the closure, include bed rehabilitation and expansion of suitable spawning habitat. Close it for 3 years, with detailed study of the major sites to see how you are effecting the spawner numbers and their success. Consider reopening after 3 years, if its crawling with skinny 4 inch fish that aren't getting enough food to grow.

Big task with big needs for volunteer support on/off the creek. Can't be done without that.

Bob Loblaw · Senior Member

Full disclosure....I just started fishing Putah this year and have a lot to learn about the creek and its challenges so my opinion might not count for much, but I'll give it anyway.

The people who are harassing fish on redds are going to do it if the creek is open or closed. THey clearly have challenges with ethics and would walk past a "no fishing" sign without missing a beat. Right now the only thing that I can see thats preventing these jerks from harassing spawning fish are the responsible anglers who are fishing deeper water away from the redds. There have been several instances that contributors to this forum have described where they have chased anglers off redds. Its good to shame/educate these people when we see bad behavior on the creek. If we all leave, the deterrant will be all but gone and the big fish thrill seekers will have the spawners to themselves.

My 2 cents.

I have fished a few times this winter, always in deep water at access 3...am I disturbing spawning fish? I'm willing to listen and learn and change if need be.

georgek · Veteran Member

jvento: you didnt address my point at all. If AFFC didnt catch spawning fish, post pictures of them, and then tell others not to do the same would that be a bad thing? And maybe im just not up on current events but cold you explain what you mean exactly regarding the government profiting from mining? maybe with some sources?

-- Edited by georgek on Thursday 19th of January 2012 10:31:35 PM

Xnjb707X · Senior Member

Just remember that Putah creek is a great fishery the whole rest of the year not just in the winter. I seriously feel that wanting to keep the creek open in the winter is for selfish reasons. I am not knocking anyone personally, I just know that the creek will be a better place for everyone and future generations if we let the creek have a break during the winter. If anyone wants more knowledge of the creek or fishing tips for the rest of the seasons on the creek I'll give out free lessons just to show that it's not just winter time that is great for fishing. Hit me up in the spring! Peace - Nic

Bob Loblaw · Senior Member

I'm going to take you up on that generous offer because anytime I've gone to the creek when the flows are high I can't even find a spot to fish!...except for the hole below the bridge and thats always taken.

Cole Davis · Senior Member

I love the flows at 400-600 cfs. The water is super challenging and made me a much better flyfisher once I committed myself to figuring it out. "Better" is a relative term for a hack like me but I know it made me better. The creek is wider and you have to roll cast and mend a country mile sometimes. Trust me if you dedicate yourself the rewards are so much greater...

jvento · Senior Member

georgek wrote:
The problem I had with the AFFC was less that they were catching spawners (which still bugs me), and more how they are doing it. I already said it but ill say it again. Last year a friend of mine was told that fishing to spawners and fishing around redds was/is not ethical by the guys at AFFC, then they turn around and started showing pictures of spawning fish that they had caught up there the previous day. I had a similar experience in there two weeks ago. Their report says to avoid redds and let fish do their thing in peace, then they put up pictures of fish that are about to explode with eggs. It seems to me that they have more concern about other people fishing on the redds; because it will take away from their client's fish count/size, and less concern about actually doing the right thing.

Just because the fish in the picture are "spawn colored" does not mean that they were taken off of redds, nor that they were actively spawning. Fish don't miraculously change color over night and eggs don't spontaneously grow within hours. Although their strength and ablity to break off would say otherwise, we're not dealing with "hulk-trout."

The act of reproduction is a very energy consuming activity. These fish are going to continue to feed and keep up their reserves throughout the spawning season, or else they will die. In other words, there will be fish, both pre-spawn and post-spawn, that are in spawning colors, that are feeding. And here's a shocker, those fish most likely wont be feeding while on a redd. They'll likely be in the slot below gobblin' up eggs or in the feeding lane of a deeper run munchin' midges. Unfortunately there are no blinking signs above the runs saying, "Spawners Not Allowed" so these damn a$$hole spawners are going to eat wherever they feel like it. Must be trout history month or something.

Before anyone says otherwise... no, I'm not condoning fishing to fish on Redds. But this mentality that all photos of fish caught during spawning season are fish that have been taken off of Redds is getting old. And just because a fish is milting or shooting eggs in a photo, doesn't mean the fish was taken off of a Redd either. Geez. Almost every animal releases bodily fluids of some sorts when scared ****less. I know that I'd **** my pants if a Giant pulled me out of my reality by a hook in my mouth. Unless you were there as a witness, ultimately, you really have no way of knowing exactly where that fish was caught.

As we all know, Putah is a fragile ecosytem. Fortunately, there is a team of individuals (that's us guys) that care about the fishery. But here's where we bust out the hypocritical double edged sword... If we all stay off of the creek, who will be there to educate the newbies or report the poachers? Who will be there to fill out the angler surveys? We've seen in the past how vital of a role this plays with DFG. As stewards to the creek I believe that we have a duty to be responsible, yet active, fisherman. But how we balance that with the spawning season, I just don't know.

-Jon

Otter · Senior Member

Here is just a little hypothetical question for you Jon. If you see ten to fifteen redds in one area of the creek and there are actually no fish on the redds when you actually walk up to the area. Remember now fish scatter when they see or hear anything odd. Some of the redds are 10-15 feet long and at least five feet wide. Some of the redds are in the shallow water that need to cast from or fight fish from. Would you fish that area? Would you gingerly wade through all the redds and proceed to cast below the redds or would you move on...

georgek · Veteran Member

My issue is that they say catching spawners is unethical, but they are obviously making money off catching spawners. Maybe I should have made the spawning fish/redd distinction.

jvento · Senior Member

Georgek,

The government says destroying habitat is unethical, yet they profit daily from drilling oil and mining precious minerals from our pristine wildernesses. But then again, none of us would be able to be on this forum discussing these points if they didn't...

Otter,

I think the best plan of action is to perform the Irish Step-dancing classic the Riverdance. Followed of course by the Truckee Shuffle. These two methods, especially when performed back to back over the same Redd generally show the greatest respect and care for the developing eggs... disbelief

Sounds to me like this hypothetical river section you speak of is littered with Redds, however there are no riffles, runs, or pools nearby, which are what I would aim for and prefer to fish. So no, I would not fish that area. I would stop, admire, and move on. I would not cross or wade on the "spawning gravel," I would find a large bouldered area, sandy bottomed area, or in Putah's case, a silty-weedy area, and cross there. If this river section with shallow water and gravel had a deep run on the otherside of the river that I felt was worth pursuing, I might fish it. Hard to say without being there. Depends on how large and deep the run is, vicinity to the redds, ability to cross, etc. Its a judgement call that I make while on the river. The way I see it, there's usually a lot of river to go around so I'm okay to move along. Even if there is no visible Redd in an area of gravel near other Redds, the possibility exists of an old Redd being present. So generally, I avoid those areas during Winter.

For extra credit: If the fish are currently spawning on the Redds at the time I arrive on the bank there's a good chance that they are not going to zoom right away. I'm sure you've seen plenty of fish on Redds while standing river side, I know I have. Half the time they don't move. How else would people be able to visibly snag fish off of Redds? Reason being, the fish's focus has changed from survival mode to lets-get-down-and-dirty. I mean come on, why would a plump trout put itself within catching distance of the resident Osprey? It just makes no sense. Therefore, one would think that the fish in your scenario were not actively spawning, and you were throwing a trick question.

Did I pass? What grade did I get?

-Jon

Otter · Senior Member

I would say you and Darth Vader get an F. As in failed to realize what is going on. Most of the spawners these days are spooked by fly fishers raping the redds. If you walk within 20 feet they split. It is not like the old days. When people would avoid the redds. So what you are saying is if you can not see the fish on the redds they are not spawners??? Those are just pre spawners or post spawners, I don't think so. The fish are so spooked now they mostly spawn at night. Fishing behind the redds these days is just like fishing the redds. If you want to see the river section I am talking about review the AFFC Facebook site and then go look at the area in question. There are ten to fifteen redds in the area. The area has redds as big as the deer sign. The fish are spawning right where Darth Vader says he starts his drifts. They are also spawning in the deep water behind the tree.

The worst problem is that there are shallow redds in the area. These redds are on the side that most people fish from. You can tell a client where the redds are, but when it comes down to it people have no idea where they are running when they get spawner fever.

The area is especially vulnerable this year as many fish are in this area due to a downed tree that is blocking the fish from getting to their normal spawning areas.

Rossflyguy · Senior Member

Georgek he means everyone says one thing and does another. It seems like to me if you say anything about fishing this time of year or post any pictures AT ALL, you get the third degree. Its better to keep you mouth shut and never mention catching fish because if you do someone will give you twenty million reasons why the fish might have died. What everyone needs to do is focus on the people they actually catch doing these things rather then pushing members to never give valuable input for others to try/learn. Jon is right, if no one fishes the river then who is going to care about protecting the fish? There are pre-spawn and post spawn fish. Greg Bono posted he had taken customer out recently and caught 17" fish and no one is even flinching at it.All everyone is doing is pissing others off to the point they don't care anymore. Just let it go already. If you catch someone in the act then open your mouths.

georgek · Veteran Member

I fish during this time of year. I fish far away from redds, in a responsible manner. I'm not in favor of a full shutdown at this point. What I would like is for AFFC to not try to pull fast ones on me or other fishermen when I walk into their store by showing me pictures of fish that I know are spawners while hinting that maybe I should get a guide from them from for putah because of the fish they are showing me.

-- Edited by georgek on Friday 20th of January 2012 09:35:24 AM

jvento · Senior Member

Georgek,

How was I supposed to address your point? I was attempting to make a simple analogy off your statement. Making money and business go hand in hand. Many times, there's little room for ethics in the equation.

Sources? Come on man, I'm not gonna write a research paper. This forum is about Putah Creek. We've already gone far enough off topic. Please refer to www.google.com and www.wikipedia.org for info on mining and drilling around the world and how those profits are dispersed. Blasting AFFC from a forum wont do anything; take a petition over there or something. I say you gear your energy toward shutting the creek down during winter. That would solve the problem all together.

In this case, guide trips are expensive. Many people who are novice fly fisherman may not have the funds to afford a guide but once in a long while, so the one trip they can pay for ought to be a memorable experience. Especially when dropping $350+, it already cost enough to get into the sport. People pay guides to catch fish, and big ones to boot.

Otter,

People avoided redds in the past? How so? Maybe some more old timers to the creek could chime in on this. I would think a similar problem has and always will exist in all waterways with respect to people trampling redds and or snagging fish. The uneducated angler is going to make the mistake, its easy to do. We were all there at one point.

"So what you are saying is if you can not see the fish on the redds they are not spawners??? " - Otter

I think you misread. "The act of reproduction is a very energy consuming activity. These fish [spawners] are going to continue to feed and keep up their reserves throughout the spawning season, or else they will die. In other words, there will be fish [spawners], both pre-spawn and post-spawn, that are in spawning colors, that are feeding..."-me

Basically, spawners in feeding lanes (not on redds). Spawners refers to fish in pre-spawn and post-spawn. The fish can only be spawning for that one moment of glory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7tc8f1bIBQ). Otherwise they are either pre-spawn or post-spawn. Ultimately, a moot point to the goal of the group. Hopefully we can move forward from here.

I've yet to fish above the bridge. Foreign water to me. So if that is the area that you are referring to, then I'm at a loss. I'm going to explore it at some point.

-Jon

bono · Master Fly Fishing Guide

WOW!!!Here we go again, I'm gonna make this short and sweet. Many years ago, well before I started this site, the creek used to get pounded by many more anglers than we experience now and the areas that were pounded the most were the spawning beds. It was not uncommon to see 5 or 6 anglers fishing one area were the fish were spawning (sometimes even more). Thanks to the current awareness (and that means most of the people on this site,) things have changed dramatically for the better but we still have a ways to go.So lets not beat each other up here, remember we are all on the same team with the same goal. Greg

lightfoot · Senior Member

Before this thread goes poof or gets locked I'm throwing in my 2 cents. I consider myself an old timer. I started fishing (Putah) around age 8 or so, and have done so off and on for about 40 years.

Back in "the day" it was strictly catch n keep. The vast majority of the fish caught were planters though a large fish well over 20" was not uncommon. There were other people fishing the creek but it was never what I would consider "crowded". The biggest crowds seemed to be around lake Solano and the planter truck, yes I did that too when I was a kid.

Fast forward to the early 90's. I quit chucking bait, started fly fishing and my eyes opened. Prior to that I was still catch and keep. Now, instead of spending a couple of hours to catch a limit and enjoy some time outdoors there was a problem. That limit was only minutes away so to keep fishing it was time to let them go. Yes fishing was that good in the early 90's. In hind site it was probably just as good earlier for those with fly gear. It was nothing to land 20-40+ fish in an afternoon after work (fly season/Winter/spawning time) with many fish over 20". Prior to '90 I'm sure there were fly guys out there doing exactly as I had. But if you remember earleier in this post, it was never crowded.

Along came the internet and that changed. By 93-94 the creek was getting crowded, especially in "that season". By 95 the fishing success had droped considerably. The huge number days of big fish gave way to 6-12 being a good day with some in the 16-18" class and a lucky toad now and then. Now the creek is a circus on any given weekend and hooking a "couple" is all to common.

Admit it or not, the creek is dying. There will always be some fish in Putah. If numbers drop low enough people will just quit fishing it. It rebounds slightly and we get more pressure and a repeat percormance. I feel that without some sort of seasonal closure Putah will never be the booming fishery that it usex to be.

As for guides. I don't ever remember seeing a guide on Putah until the 90's. I remember when Greg first started his service. The goof (lmao really? editing) wanted me to go in with him, hah, I'm a novice compared to him (shamless plug, you owe me a beer dude). one guide experience I do remember very well took place above the bridge at what was called the beds. Picture 12-15 people fishing around that little island in the slot above and in the gravel tailout. Yeah remember the internet and "crowded". This guide, not Greg btw, showed up with his client and per the guides comments, crossed downstream of the redds in the gravel tailout. They ended up sight casting to spawning fish, which I'm sad to admit wasn't that different from what the rest of us were doing. As the day wore on everbody left but the guide, client and myself. I was above the bank and watched the guide and client wade right throvh the redds because "nobody is around". Yes they are still a guide and well known. I'm willing to bet his attitude has changed though.

Change. It happend and the users need to adjust. Who here has acted as a guide on Putah prior to 1990? 1980? Know of anybody that has guided that far back? How was the fishing? Do you think you would have a better guide business today if you could put you clients into 20+ nice fish? 30?. Keine's might have some guide info from back then. I don't think Stan had been around long enough. Sweenies? Powels? I'd love to see the creek back the way it used to be but it's going to have to be through hard work and changes. It just can't; and HASN'T, sustained itself with the pressure it receives and it's current habitat state.

Intervention and talking with people that are fishing "redds". Yup, I've done it. So have a few others on this board. I'd be willing to bet that MOST on this board have not. Then I'm guessing that a very small percentage of the people that actually fish Putah frequent this site. Intervention and user education takes place far less often than anybody would hope to believe.

-- Edited by lightfoot on Friday 20th of January 2012 05:49:20 PM

-- Edited by lightfoot on Sunday 22nd of January 2012 08:37:47 AM

jvento · Senior Member

Thanks for the chime in Bono. Nice to hear that the creek has been receiving less pressure throughout the years. Let's hope this continues and fosters a healthy, reproducing population of wild trout.

Sorry for the rants guys, just tired of all the bashing. Looks like we've all made our points. Hopefully we can take them all to heart and move forward. As I stated before and many others have chimed in, we all have a duty as stewards to the creek. In order to protect the fishery we need to be responsible, yet active on the creek.

Be good humans.

-Jon

iamamultitasker · Senior Member

My .02 is that the creek should be closed during spawning. As many have pointed out, the creek is very fishable (in fact better) during non-spawning times and would only get better if the creek were closed for most of the winter.

I understand the people who want to fish responsibly during spawning, but IMO, it is not worth allowing some of the short-sighted fisherman access at these times. Making PC catch and release has had a major impact on the quantity and size of the trout - imagine how good the fishing would be if the spawners were fully protected.

BennyS · Member

Love the passion guys. I'm still fairly new at this aspect of being an angler ( conservation) and I find all of this very interesting. I've personally never been one to disrespect the rules,ever, but until recently I would have deffinately fished the redds because I would'nt have known any better. Thanks to people like all of you things like this can be brought to the attention of others who something like this would have never crossed their minds. So while you may have your differences, you are all on the right page and doing a good thing for Putah Creek and anglers who are less educated on topics and ethics like these. Thanks.