Clearly blue is a colour I need to start buying!!! Being new to this I cannot conceive catching that many fish in such a short space of time. Anyway at least now I have something to aim for!!

JL, those are the days  that make up for the ones when we can't buy a fish.

Guys - when you get into a hot spot like that try to limit yourself. For example try to just fish dry flies, that will already bring down the fish count and is more enjoyable.  How many fish do you really need to catch? Keep in mind that depending on how you handle the fish a good number of them will not survive. Lets say survival rate is 80% that means you just killed 6 fish (every 30 fish). I am certain your survival rate is more like 95% and that you handle fish with care, but I have been seeing so many dead fish lately, most of which were catch and release "left overs" that I sometimes wonder weather or not catch and release is really what it is cracked up to be.

You can flame me now

-- Edited by flyfishingjunkie on Wednesday 1st of July 2009 09:03:47 AM

JL wrote:

---

With all due respect, consider yourself flamed.

Barbless hooks, ldrs, fish flipping off before you touch them, and if they're small, releasing them by grabbing the hook and turning help the little ones.

Fishing up a riffle and nailing fish after fish is something I'll never be able to turn away from.

So how much fish it too many? If they're wild and healthy, 642.

JL

---

I know it is hard to resist, and I am guilty as charged.  It's just that recently I have been contemplating a lot about the whole catch and release philosophy. . Getting a day like that is the "crack of fly fishing".  But just imagine the guy behind you catches 30 and the guy behind him and so on. I have seen tons of dead fish on Hat Creek, Putah and other rivers that get hammered. Most of those dead fish have been all "catch and release left overs". But I hear you, most fisherman including myself  don't want to have that conversation

From the research I've read Catch and Release survival rates are above 97% with flies and artificial lures. With bait, some people have estimated this drops as low as 70%. I bet the fly morality drops below 1% if an angler revives and releases the fish quickly.

Barbed hooks themselves don't lead to higher rates of mortality, but the increased handling time typically does. Barbless hooks also are easier for fish to rid themselves of, so a deeply hooked fly can simply be cut and fish can throw it (I've read it happens within 40 days usually).

As Drifter knows, I sometimes like to release huge fish before the picture. I can't help it.

Vince

vince wrote:

---

From the research I've read Catch and Release survival rates are above 97% with flies and artificial lures. With bait, some people have estimated this drops as low as 70%. I bet the fly morality drops below 1% if an angler revives and releases the fish quickly.

Barbed hooks themselves don't lead to higher rates of mortality, but the increased handling time typically does. Barbless hooks also are easier for fish to rid themselves of, so a deeply hooked fly can simply be cut and fish can throw it (I've read it happens within 40 days usually).

As Drifter knows, I sometimes like to release huge fish before the picture. I can't help it.

Vince

---

Take a fish out of water for 15-30 seconds and the survival rate sinks to 60% and less, so it is very smart to release big fish without the picture. I will take your word anytime 

Take a fish out of water for 15-30 seconds and the survival rate sinks to 60% and less. I take pictures of fish professionally and for sure have done my share of fish killing.  I adjusted a lot of my catch and release practices and shoot a lot less and try to never take the fish fully out of the water anymore.

"I also see them in Putah, some of the ones I see are to big to be planters."

I hate to break it to you, but the DFG plants their Broodstock planter fish all the time, with many of these fish reaching the 4-6 lb range. All planters are not 9-12" fish. Many large fish are also planted with the normal 9-12" fish. Some of these large fish (I've seen 3-5 lbers released with the youngin's) that you see could easily be a hold over planter that has had some time to grow.

You seem to be all about the studies... "But just imagine the guy behind you catches 30 and the guy behind him and so on...Most of those dead fish have been all "catch and release left overs"

First of all, I agree, if you see a dead fish in the water, it's likely that somebody released this fish. But these people probably released this fish in a very poor fashion (I know I gave a few the triple backflip or a good high dive when I was a kid). But you must ask yourself, how many of these catch and release hold-overs were caught by fly fisherman, who 90% of the time hook the fish in the jaw? I'd bet most of the "c&r hold overs" have a treble hook lodged somewhere or damage to their gills. Do you physically go down there, grab the fish, and perform an autopsy to see the cause of death? I'm sure most of us don't and just assume the worst, after all, that is the easiest thing to do.

If you read this in a study, whose to say that their results were not skewed. If they did the studies in a lab, their results are already skewed based on unnatural conditions with unnatural levels of stress being introduced to the fish over long periods of time. And unless they literally sat on a stream and monitored each and every individual fish that a fisherman (fly, bait and spincasters alike) caught, and rated the various mortality rates of the fish based upon the time of the fight, the time out of the water, the location of the hookset, the amount contact with the fish, and the time spent releasing the fish, I have a hard time finding credibility in those facts (not to mention the amount of time and poor handling techniques that the scientist could likely have).

Since you like studies so much, I have a couple questions for you. What's the average time that a trout takes to start feeding after it's been captured and released, or even just hooked? Also, how often, or over what length of time does it take a trout to go back to the exact same holding water after it's been shaken up and released in a different location (depending on the body of water, one may not be able to release in the same hole)? There is a stretch of river that I fish back at home that doesn't get too much pressure and if I fish there two days in a row, I always catch less fish on the second day. My assumption is that when released, the fish find different holding spots. Maybe a couple of them are dead, but I'd be willing to bet that 99% or more (of the fish I release) of them are still alive. I would attribute that to a couple factors though. I do my best to take extra care when releasing fish, handling them as little as possible and getting them back in the water as fast as possible. I also let the fish swim away on his own accord into slower moving water that he can hold in to regain his strength.  Also, all of the fish in this stretch are wild and very healthy. Water quality is great and the water temperatures when I fish are nice and low. I've always heard to cease fishing once the water temps are nearing 70F for the fish don't respond well to catch and release. My guess is that oxygen becomes harder to transfer across the membranes in the gills at higher temps? This is just a complete guess though so if somebody knows, please add in.

I'm tired of typing for now, but I'll leave you with this. Most fisherman have terrible catch and release tactics. Most of these fisherman are not fly fisherman. Most fly fisherman probably don't use barbless hooks. And most of those fly fisherman are not regular members of this fine group of fly fisherman on this forum who I'd like to think exercise greater caution for the safety of the trout (or at least I do) because the people who actually care have done their part to educate and express their own good behaviors on the rest of the forum go-ers, for the greater good of the fly fishing community, and health of the trout population. In other words, it does you no good to preach to the choir.

-Jon


-- Edited by jvento on Monday 6th of July 2009 04:02:16 PM

-- Edited by jvento on Monday 6th of July 2009 04:03:20 PM

-- Edited by jvento on Monday 6th of July 2009 04:39:10 PM

As a student of statistics, I've done some research into some studies Jon. There is no reason to attack studies; this is without a doubt the only way to actaully find some conclusive evidence in this debate.

jvento wrote:

---

Also, all of the fish in this stretch are wild and very healthy. Water quality is great and the water temperatures when I fish are nice and low. I've always heard to cease fishing once the water temps are nearing 70F for the fish don't respond well to catch and release. My guess is that oxygen becomes harder to transfer across the membranes in the gills at higher temps? This is just a complete guess though so if somebody knows, please add in.

---

There is simply less dissolved oxygen in water at these temperatures (here is an illustrative graphic showing this inverse relationship: http://www.gemswater.org/digital_atlas/images/figures/large/3.jpg). I'd be hard pressed to find a trout that lives in any water above 65ºF... At this point trout are pushing towards cold springs and bubbly riffles trying to get oxygen.

If you read this in a study, whose to say that their results where not skewed. If they did the studies in a lab, their results are already skewed based on unnatural conditions with unnatural levels of stress being introduced to the fish over long periods of time. And unless they literally sat on a stream and monitored each and every individual fish that a fisherman (fly, bait and spincasters alike) caught, and rated the various mortality rates of the fish based upon the time of the fight, the time out of the water, the location of the hookset, the amount contact with the fish, and the time spent releasing the fish, I have a hard time finding credibility in those facts.

This how they conduct most trout mortality studies. Fish are followed or put into holding tanks in a river.

Most fly fisherman probably don't use barbless hooks.

Agreed, but research on barbless hooks is very inconclusive on whether this matters. Taylor and White (1992) had a meta-analysis on mortality of nonanadromous trout. They found a huge difference between mortality (around 34% mortality for barbed hooks, and 8% for barbless). However their research design is really asymmetric between treatment groups in the meta-analysis: seven studies involving barbed hooks and one involving barbless hooks.  Remember, barbless hooks penetrate deeper. Deeper penetration is more likely to reach the the eye in fish hooked through the upper jaw. Barbed hooks are harder to remove and more likely to destroy a trout's maxillary and cause additional stress. It's a toss up (when is Tiemco going to invent short hooked barbless J-hooks?). Circle hooks do have the lowest mortality (see attached image from Bartholomew & Bohnsack, 2005).

If you are really worried about trout mortality due to deeply ingested flies, I'd suggest investigating the Moffit Angling System (although this would lead to awful maxillary damage).

I can't find the study where I first read this, but trout mortality is lower in moving water. The current (after reviving and release) flows through their gills and removes lactitic acid faster than would occur by a trout released in stillwater.

Cook 2005 finds that air exposure makes little difference in swimming performance  to Brook trout (after simulated catch and release exercise) as long as it's below 60 seconds. Air exposure of 120 seconds drastically worsened swimming performance.




I think the best short paper for fly fishers that cites many studies' findings is here (pdf). I highly recommend it.

Or you can just keep fish in the water, release them quickly, and know that in the long run catch and release waters do better than waters with bag limits.


-- Edited by vince on Monday 6th of July 2009 06:52:13 PM

Some of my post got cut off...

"much of the mortality
associated with deeply hooked rainbow trout is a result
of punctures to the heart or liver (Mason & Hunt
1967). In several assessments of catch-and-release
survival (e.g. Diodati & Richards 1996; Schill 1996),
authors noted that mortality events generally occurred
quickly (

....I don't mean to attack studies but I was bored and Contrreas and Sanchez prior to srawning determined that delayed ovulation causes stress in the avid angler ,or something to that effect......you guys need to go fishing, although you are entertaining.

Actually that is some very good info. Fish and game thinks there is not a significant difference in single and treble hooks. That is why the regs say barbless hooks, no mention of hook gap and type of hook. If some of you remember the Putah regs used to say barbless flies only during the winter. This may have led to many of the problems on Putah. Personally I think there is no difference in using a size 22 barbless or barbed hook, except that you lose a lot more fish with a barbless 22 or 24. Releasing the fish is no problem if you know what you are doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IU1bzZheWk

Enjoy!